Frownland

Yes, that's exactly what everyone is saying. **** you for being circumcised and circumcising your kid. You're a ****ty person because you think your dick is pretty. That's really what our side of the argument boils down to.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

duga

My stance on this is the same stance I have for any counter-movement. This is reactionary. Any time there is a movement in one direction (in this case, women's rights), there will inevitably be a counter movement filled with people who don't understand the reason there is a women's rights movement in the first place. Just because there is a movement for "x" doesn't mean "y" is being treated unfairly or that they are not getting their voices heard. This is the same as people countering "Black Lives Matter" with "White/All Lives Matter". Do all lives matter? Of course, but you are missing the point. Some lives feel they have mattered less and deserve some recognition and support. Do men's rights matter? Of course, but I don't think men have historically had a problem asserting their rights. I know there has been discussion about genital mutilation - is it a weird and archaic practice to circumcise men? Sure, but unlike female genital mutilation, a lot of people buy the "hygiene" argument and I'd say circumcision still has popular support in our society. Your opinion about whether or not it's wrong is one thing - you are entitled to your opinion. The difference between this and female genital mutilation seen throughout the world is parents have a choice about circumcision. If Goofle has a boy and decides not to circumcise him, he doesn't have to. If that same boy grows up and wants a circumcision, he can. The same can't be said for women in oppressive countries around the world.

Think hard enough about any group of people and you can come up with some ways that that group is "oppressed". But you are just scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with problems. You better believe any problem men have will be solved fairly quickly if enough men agree it's a problem. Who would stop them? There are plenty of people who will get in the way of women's rights and at this point in history, there are PLENTY of people to stop them. THAT is the point.

This thread is huge and I didn't read through all 71 pages, so sorry if any of that is redundant.

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Tristan_Geoff

I think the only overarching problem to males in society, isn't even much of a rights thing, but the toxicity of masculinity and male gender norms.

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The Batlord

Masculinity is no more toxic than femininity. Enforced masculinity is the problem, just like enforced femininity. Another thing that is toxic is demonizing masculinity, cause where the **** does that leave masculine men? A shotgun in the mouth?

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Tristan_Geoff

Only if they impose their beliefs on the rest of us, which is why it's a toxic mindset in the first place.

And of course I believe the same for femininity, just the issue on hand is why MRA is mostly bull****.

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The Batlord

Well that's kind of the problem with your idea. When you tell men they shouldn't act like what they see as how men should act, while the other half of society is telling them they can't cry, let a woman pay for dinner, or let someone call them a ***got without throwing down, and nobody's trying to meet anyone in the middle... well how the **** do you expect men to sympathize with your ideals? They're either the enemy or not real men. So might as well just stick with the easier one that doesn't cause friction with the people in your social circles.

Just because a guy has testosterone doesn't mean he's an MRA.

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Cuthbert

Lucem Ferre

Everybody imposes their beliefs on everybody else. You have to expect that. Talk all this **** about how everybody needs to feel accepted and nobody should be judged for their beliefs but we all know we're going to give somebody **** if they like Nickleback.

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riseagainstrocks

I don't like when someone posts a YT video as an argument. But I'm going to because Dan Olsen is excellent at this:


Toxic masculinity is not a judgment on manhood, masculine attributes, etc. The video essay is fantastic and as someone who hasn't watched Fight Club since high school, I realize I had the conception of the film ass-backwards.

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The Batlord

I watched a little bit of the video, and might finish it in a bit, but I just wanted to say that it sounds like I agree with it. Obviously there are societal influences on masculinity (and femininity) that are negative, but I think certain segments of people criticizing masculinity, men, the patriarchy, or whatever, are also demonizing masculinity as a whole whether they realize it or not. That I do not agree with.

I'm totally open to change in the concept of masculinity, but not a one-sided castigation of the entire concept that strips it of anything meaningful to men (and women too).

And as someone who read Fight Club as a mid-twenty-something, I seem to have interpreted it the same as the video. I don't know just how deep Chuck Palahniuk's philosophy was when he wrote it, but it's definitely first and foremost an expression of frustration with being a male in the 21st century that doesn't really try to tell you how you "should" act, so much as just expressing that frustration. Though I suspect it's even more about the author being gay and how that plays into his role as a male in society.

I wonder what all the cretins who watch the movie for the fight scenes would think if they knew the author was gay lol?

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