The queer corner

**Marie Monday** · 12-02-2020, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP

Being trans does not equal being gay, there's no such thing as a trans-radar.

And the answer is no, lol, you cannot tell someone's gender identity just by looking at them. That's the whole point of rejecting the gender binary. How someone presents outwardly doesn't indicate how they identify internally. It was not a real question.

Oh come on, if someone is not cis but hasn't come out yet, and they're therefore uncomfortable with the gender they publicly identify as, there can definitely be signs. That is what I mean. That kind of discomfort with indentity is also a gaydar thing, which is why I brought that up.
Also, in the ideal case gender identity and presentation aren't connected at all (and I obviously have a lot of personal experience with that struggle) but in practise it often is.
By saying you can tell most people don't mean that they can literally be sure (unless you're Hawk)

WWWP · 12-02-2020, 10:00 AM

Yeah but the point of moving away from/abolishing the gender binary is acknowledging that gender identity is internal and not reflective of outward appearance. You could look at someone and assume they are genderqueer or gendernonconforming, or masculine of center, etc. etc. based on the way they present, but you can't look at someone and tell they're trans, because it's so much deeper than appearance. Trying to guess at someone's "real" gender vs what they're trying to pass as perpetuates "passing" culture which only reinforces the harm that comes from adhering to the binary.

I'm not making this up out of nowhere. Maybe it's a regional thing, but here (and on the internet?) it is considered not only pointless but harmful to guess at peoples' identities. Because when you look at a person and decide you "can tell" or go on to deem them trans, you're guessing at 1) how they identify internally, 2) what genitalia they possess and 3) what gender they were assigned at birth. Surely you can see why those things are weird and creepy to do, and why it's no one's business but their own.

Thinking you are able to "tell" whether or not people are trans before they come out is just weird and creepy arrogance. Do you see where I'm coming from?

WWWP · 12-02-2020, 10:04 AM

It's like trying to guess someone's race. Sure, sometimes you might guess right. But why are you guessing in the first place?

Lucem Ferre · 12-02-2020, 10:07 AM

I'm a beautiful white man.

But I do hate it when people assume I'm not beautiful.

**Marie Monday** · 12-02-2020, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP

Yeah but the point of moving away from/abolishing the gender binary is acknowledging that gender identity is internal and not reflective of outward appearance. You could look at someone and assume they are genderqueer or gendernonconforming, or masculine of center, etc. etc. based on the way they present, but you can't look at someone and tell they're trans, because it's so much deeper than appearance. Trying to guess at someone's "real" gender vs what they're trying to pass as perpetuates "passing" culture which only reinforces the harm that comes from adhering to the binary.

I'm not making this up out of nowhere. Maybe it's a regional thing, but here (and on the internet?) it is considered not only pointless but harmful to guess at peoples' identities. Because when you look at a person and decide you "can tell" or go on to deem them trans, you're guessing at 1) how they identify internally, 2) what genitalia they possess and 3) what gender they were assigned at birth. Surely you can see why those things are weird and creepy to do, and why it's no one's business but their own.

Thinking you are able to "tell" whether or not people are trans before they come out is just weird and creepy arrogance. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Of course I see what you mean, I know and I agree. I've found out the truth of what you're saying long ago, the hard way.
I know it's mostly on me for phrasing things clumsily, but you have to take the 'I can tell' way less strongly than I think you do. I generally don't go around guessing these things about people, I never wondered whether Elliot Page might be trans, but when I hear such things often in hindsight it makes sense and I realise I had a subconscious feeling. In my personal case, it means picking up that someone seems to be struggling with something similar to me.
Also, sometimes the guessing is not entirely pointless for that reason. It can be about trying to find people who relate to your struggles.

~~jwb~~ · 12-02-2020, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP

It's like trying to guess someone's race. Sure, sometimes you might guess right. But why are you guessing in the first place?

but race is a social construct based on outward appearance...

The confusing thing about the whole gender question to me is that if you completely divorce gender from any specific characteristics you render it functionally meaningless

Like if I say I identify as a woman but that changes nothing about my appearance, personality, presentation, etc then what does me identifying as a woman even mean? It seems like it means nothing at all.

**Marie Monday** · 12-02-2020, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

but race is a social construct based on outward appearance...

The confusing thing about the whole gender question to me is that if you completely divorce gender from any specific characteristics you render it functionally meaningless

Like if I say I identify as a woman but that changes nothing about my appearance, personality, presentation, etc then what does me identifying as a woman even mean? It seems like it means nothing at all.

It becomes VERY abstract at least.
This is related to why gender should be abolished altogether. I've talked about this before, but having such a thing as gender at all is perpetuating harmful notions.

~~jwb~~ · 12-02-2020, 10:59 AM

It's not even just abstract, it's essentially meaningless as far as I can tell even on the abstract level.

Like you can say it's internal but even then, internally there must be some characteristics you associate with being a woman in order for you to make that internal distinction. Otherwise it just comes down to whether you like the word "woman" more than "man."

I don't think it can be abolished in the sense that people will always associate characteristics with different categories and percieve those categorical distinctions intrinsically. I think that's why gender exists to a large extent. Somewhat similar to why race exists.

**Marie Monday** · 12-02-2020, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

It's not even just abstract, it's essentially meaningless as far as I can tell even on the abstract level.

Like you can say it's internal but even then, internally there must be some characteristics you associate with being a woman in order for you to make that internal distinction. Otherwise it just comes down to whether you like the word "woman" more than "man."

I don't think it can be abolished in the sense that people will always associate characteristics with different categories and percieve those categorical distinctions intrinsically. I think that's why gender exists to a large extent. Somewhat similar to why race exists.

True. And I agree it can probably never be abolished, which is why I consider it a compromise.
Still it is true that even if gender has certain characteristics, you can't just know for sure from the outside.

~~jwb~~ · 12-02-2020, 11:15 AM

I have no conception of being able to tell unless there's outward indicators. If you're a trans woman who doesn't quite pass or still has a slightly masculine voice or other characteristics, I can probably tell. If you pass then obviously I can't tell. If you are one of those ambiguous gender queer types I probably just assume you're just a chick with a punk rock haircut.

As far as being able to spot a trans person before they transition.. nah that's out of my realm.

I can spot gays and bis pretty well though whether closeted or not. Like I'm fairly convinced Obama might be bi tbh.

12-02-2020, 10:59 AM	#768 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	It's not even just abstract, it's essentially meaningless as far as I can tell even on the abstract level. Like you can say it's internal but even then, internally there must be some characteristics you associate with being a woman in order for you to make that internal distinction. Otherwise it just comes down to whether you like the word "woman" more than "man." I don't think it can be abolished in the sense that people will always associate characteristics with different categories and percieve those categorical distinctions intrinsically. I think that's why gender exists to a large extent. Somewhat similar to why race exists.

12-02-2020, 11:15 AM	#770 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I have no conception of being able to tell unless there's outward indicators. If you're a trans woman who doesn't quite pass or still has a slightly masculine voice or other characteristics, I can probably tell. If you pass then obviously I can't tell. If you are one of those ambiguous gender queer types I probably just assume you're just a chick with a punk rock haircut. As far as being able to spot a trans person before they transition.. nah that's out of my realm. I can spot gays and bis pretty well though whether closeted or not. Like I'm fairly convinced Obama might be bi tbh.