evolution and humans: nature vs society

~~jwb~~ · 12-09-2020, 10:57 AM

Since this same debate popped up in multiple other threads and there are always complaints that it's off topic, here's a thread to continue that discussion should it continue to pop up.

Me and elph were having a back and forth regarding nature vs society and I was challenging him to explain the distinction he was making and he said he can't explain something so obvious. Imo when you can't explain something obvious that's a good sign you don't actually understand it yourself but rather are taking it for granted

**Marie Monday** · 12-09-2020, 11:05 AM

oh cheers for making a proper thread for it

OccultHawk · 12-09-2020, 11:07 AM

There’s no competing with nature because everything is part of nature. Even Casper.

~~jwb~~ · 12-09-2020, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

instinct vs. learned behavior

holy ****

this is not even a back and forth

this is more like a student shooting spitballs at the teacher or something

ok but you understand learned behavior isn't unique to humans right?

OccultHawk · 12-09-2020, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

instinct vs. learned behavior

holy ****

this is not even a back and forth

this is more like a student shooting spitballs at the teacher or something

Learned behavior is just a subcategory of instinct. They’re not separate phenomena.

~~jwb~~ · 12-09-2020, 12:47 PM

No he's right that there's a distinction between learned behavior and instinct, but once again that is not just humans. Honeybees have been observed to operate on learned behavior.

~~jwb~~ · 12-09-2020, 12:51 PM

The nature vs nurture distinction generally refers to what is genetic vs environmental

But those environmental factors are often if not always perfectly natural. That's why we're talking past each other. We need to clarify our terms.

OccultHawk · 12-09-2020, 01:09 PM

Everything is perfectly natural.

Plants have learned behavior.

Quote:

No he's right that there's a distinction between learned behavior and instinct

Sure. If you live before the advent of neuroscience.

OccultHawk · 12-09-2020, 01:14 PM

Quote:

The nature vs nurture distinction generally refers to what is genetic vs environmental

So there are people who still think there’s living organisms that have a part of them that isn’t formed through genetics and it reacts to the environment? Do they have any theory where this mysterious puppet master resides?

~~jwb~~ · 12-09-2020, 05:21 PM

It's actually mainstream science lol. Your environment affects how your genetics manifest into your phenotype. It's been documented for a long time.

A simple example would be that you can take two seeds from the same plant and grow them with different amounts of light and different soil and they will come out differently. There's nothing mysterious about it. Your genes are just a blueprint for your phenotype but you still need actual material to build said phenotype and your environment can affect this.

On a more abstract level, information you're exposed to is contingent on your environment. How you respond to said information is affected by your genetics but also by learned information which is once again a function of your environment.

12-09-2020, 10:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	evolution and humans: nature vs society Since this same debate popped up in multiple other threads and there are always complaints that it's off topic, here's a thread to continue that discussion should it continue to pop up. Me and elph were having a back and forth regarding nature vs society and I was challenging him to explain the distinction he was making and he said he can't explain something so obvious. Imo when you can't explain something obvious that's a good sign you don't actually understand it yourself but rather are taking it for granted

12-09-2020, 11:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	There’s no competing with nature because everything is part of nature. Even Casper. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

12-09-2020, 12:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	No he's right that there's a distinction between learned behavior and instinct, but once again that is not just humans. Honeybees have been observed to operate on learned behavior.

12-09-2020, 12:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	The nature vs nurture distinction generally refers to what is genetic vs environmental But those environmental factors are often if not always perfectly natural. That's why we're talking past each other. We need to clarify our terms.

12-09-2020, 05:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	It's actually mainstream science lol. Your environment affects how your genetics manifest into your phenotype. It's been documented for a long time. A simple example would be that you can take two seeds from the same plant and grow them with different amounts of light and different soil and they will come out differently. There's nothing mysterious about it. Your genes are just a blueprint for your phenotype but you still need actual material to build said phenotype and your environment can affect this. On a more abstract level, information you're exposed to is contingent on your environment. How you respond to said information is affected by your genetics but also by learned information which is once again a function of your environment.