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Old 04-28-2021, 10:21 AM   #401 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
every nation has relied on "socialism" (a command economy) to get to the point where they can exploit other nations in what we call a "Free Market"

there isn't an element of the US economy that didn't use extraordinary protectionist measures and government initiative to thrive

it simply does not happen that "freedom" magically generates wealth...it's just a justification for inequality
You understand there's a massive difference between collectivized agriculture and protectionism? There are only a handful of communist countries that have actually resorted to collectivization to rapidly industrialize and those are the examples we're discussing. That didn't happen in the US or western europe and it hasn't happened in many of the developing countries around the world. In the major examples where it has happened under soviet style models of command economies, the death toll for these policies has been staggering.

Protectionism is not a command economy. Restrictions on markets is not a command economy. You're conflating terms here and also probably overstating the efficacy of things like protectionism. There are pros and cons to that kind of policy like anything else and too much protectionism can stifle economic growth the same way that unmitigated free trade can lead to things like outsourcing and other externalities.
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:38 AM   #402 (permalink)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWr4ue2lQU

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Old 04-28-2021, 06:23 PM   #403 (permalink)
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I'm saying exactly what I've said. Both economic systems have no scruples about murder. I really don't know why you're getting so bent out of shape.
It's really not about giving capitalism some sort of moral high ground it's just a question of efficacy. Industrialization always has growing pains associated with it it's just the sort of rapid industrialization the soviets did has a direct cost associated in terms of human lives. So if you don't think that cost is worthwhile then it's not really a good example of how command economies can grow faster. They can grow faster by incurring a cost that many would say isn't worth the growth. So it's a non starter.
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:54 PM   #404 (permalink)
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It's really not about giving capitalism some sort of moral high ground it's just a question of efficacy. Industrialization always has growing pains associated with it it's just the sort of rapid industrialization the soviets did has a direct cost associated in terms of human lives. So if you don't think that cost is worthwhile then it's not really a good example of how command economies can grow faster. They can grow faster by incurring a cost that many would say isn't worth the growth. So it's a non starter.
Well not intrinsically. If you look at the actual history of all these famines they're more due to wild incompetence rather than knowingly paying some price. Go look up ideas both the Soviets and the Chinese had about planting seeds and it's just nonsense about how genetics is counterrevolutionary, seeds grow and develop characteristics through solidarity or some ****. Just a lot of hubris from megalomaniacs who aren't willing to admit they don't know what the **** they're doing while trying to reconstitute an entire country. Even the holodomor was made worse than Stalin even intended cause he was a dip****.
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Old 04-28-2021, 10:07 PM   #405 (permalink)
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No doubt that part of it was incompetence as well as natural factors and negative impacts collectivization had on the incentive structure that farmers operated under... But also on top of that they just continued to export grain even after it was abundantly clear they would starve people by doing so because industrialization took priority over everything including feeding the peasants who grew the crops. I'd say that was a fairly straight forward intentional act on the bolsheviks part. But even if you wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt richard wolff has the benefit of hindsight so he knows exactly what the consequences were and he still tries to sell this model as something we could look to in order to gauge the supposed efficiency of command economies.
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Old 04-29-2021, 04:33 AM   #406 (permalink)
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No doubt that part of it was incompetence as well as natural factors and negative impacts collectivization had on the incentive structure that farmers operated under... But also on top of that they just continued to export grain even after it was abundantly clear they would starve people by doing so because industrialization took priority over everything including feeding the peasants who grew the crops. I'd say that was a fairly straight forward intentional act on the bolsheviks part. But even if you wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt richard wolff has the benefit of hindsight so he knows exactly what the consequences were and he still tries to sell this model as something we could look to in order to gauge the supposed efficiency of command economies.
Yeah I don't actually want to give them the benefit of the doubt but incompetence is just as important as disregard for human life. It's the story of Russia in general tbh. And I say that as a fan.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 04-29-2021, 05:49 AM   #407 (permalink)
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I think the starving of peasants in order to divert wealth to the cities and rapidly industrialize was probably understood on some level

I mean Stalin certainly didn't care

you have to understand the primary ideology was Statism not socialism
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Old 04-29-2021, 05:53 AM   #408 (permalink)
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No doubt that part of it was incompetence as well as natural factors and negative impacts collectivization had on the incentive structure that farmers operated under... But also on top of that they just continued to export grain even after it was abundantly clear they would starve people by doing so because industrialization took priority over everything including feeding the peasants who grew the crops. I'd say that was a fairly straight forward intentional act on the bolsheviks part. But even if you wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt richard wolff has the benefit of hindsight so he knows exactly what the consequences were and he still tries to sell this model as something we could look to in order to gauge the supposed efficiency of command economies.
again his only point is that if you look at economic growth it was a success

the least developed nations could suddenly compete with the most developed
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:52 AM   #409 (permalink)
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again his only point is that if you look at economic growth it was a success

the least developed nations could suddenly compete with the most developed
I've already addressed this.

His point was that they grew fast. Specifically, his point was that they grew fast as a response to the charge that socialism hasn't worked when its been tried. In other words he's saying actually these planned economies did work well, based on said growth.

Now if you just take that statement on the surface, which you seem to do, it might sound like a good point. If you start to analyze the context and the history even the slightest amount it completely falls to shreds. He relies on the ignorance of his audience and opponent to make this point stand.

But if you analyze it in detail, you see clearly that the main innovation that sped up the growth was simply mass murder through stealing the crop yields. Yes you can argue this was the most efficient way to industrialize the ussr as rapidly as they did, and you can even argue that its what allowed them to build up their armaments in order to withstand WW2. But to make that argument to have to actually endorse the policy and the resulting genocide, which he and you are both unwilling to do so once again the rapid growth is a moot point.

The reason this frustrates me more than anything else is that if he just stuck to arguing for co ops I would more or less agree with me. When he talks about the tyranny of the workplace that resonates with me. When he starts using this soviet shell game to sell the idea that command economies have been a success story or added some sort of innovation we can learn from, he's selling snake oil. He needs to ditch that angle imo.
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Old 04-29-2021, 11:59 AM   #410 (permalink)
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And once again I think it's actually more compelling to go full tankie and just say the ends justified the means. If you wanna go the route of portraying the soviets as a success that makes more sense to me.
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