Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > Media
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-01-2021, 03:22 AM   #421 (permalink)
Willowy Elven Boy
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: This Synth Kills Fascists
Posts: 13,799
Default

the railway system...arguably the lifeblood of the early US economy was heavily subsidized and planned by the gov

the infastructure for telecommunications and the internet same idea...the postal service

most R&D is government work

on a local level the government is involved at virtually every level of deciding what can be built where

agriculture...the industry has been highly to completely reliant on the gov which pretty much determines what they grow through subsidies and trade policy

etc etc
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

Quote:
Are beehives and ant colonies unnatural? Cause they cooperate on a level we could hardly dream of.
elphenor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2021, 03:28 AM   #422 (permalink)
Willowy Elven Boy
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: This Synth Kills Fascists
Posts: 13,799
Default

you could get into the military industrial complex

how so much of our economy is based on that artificial demand

and how the gov assuming heavier control during WWII pulled us out of The Great Depression
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

Quote:
Are beehives and ant colonies unnatural? Cause they cooperate on a level we could hardly dream of.
elphenor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2021, 02:09 PM   #423 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,595
Default

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that though none of it (except maybe the WW2 example) actually rises to the level of an actual planned economy.

Again, having the government intervene with regulations or having them fund infrastructure, research etc is not a planned economy. It's a capitalist economy with a government that extracts tax revenue to fund initiatives that are better dealt with by the govt than by private enterprise.

That's a mixed economy. But it's a mixed economy that relies primarily on markets to raise the revenue that gets taxed in the first place. That's basically the only form of capitalism that has ever really existed on a broad scale.

The idea of completely unhinged markets with no govt intervention is just as theoretical as marx's communist vision. It doesn't exist in practice and I don't even think it's desirable. I'm not a libertarian. I prefer mixed economies.

I don't think any of this actually adds nuance to the efficacy of the 5 year plan and similar policies. Those policies went so far in the direction of govt control that they essentially destroyed or nearly destroyed the market infrastructure that they were extracting the resources from in the first place. They didn't invent a new method of farming, they simply seized the crop yields as property of the state and used them to buy industrial machinery from western capitalist countries.

So whether you wanna say it "worked" is actually tricky. It worked in the sense of industrialization and ramping up the productions of armaments on an industrial scale. It worked as far as the war effort is involved and, given the entirely dire circumstances the soviets were in you could even say it made good strategic sense, but that's once again biting the bullet on genocide which you don't want to do. You keep saying that's a separate question but it's not. You can't have the success without the consequences. Doesn't work that way.

But also, the soviets and even the chinese were in a particular situation which doesn't really apply to most of the rest of the world. Here in the west we have no use for a plan to rapidly industrialize through collective agriculture. Our agricultural sector is like you said hardly self sufficient and if anything we're deindustrializing as we outsource more and more manufacturing over seas. So we have no use for a soviet style 5 year plan, ethical questions aside.

The developing world also would probably be better served through gradual industrialization rather than attempts at rapid industrialization which will starve so many people. They don't have the same desperate need to industrialize quickly that the soviets did. So once again I really don't see much insight or utility in the rapid growth the ussr underwent. It just seems like a vague talking point that makes communism sound successful without having any actual pragmatic application
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/
jwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 12:16 AM   #424 (permalink)
Willowy Elven Boy
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: This Synth Kills Fascists
Posts: 13,799
Default

the developed world would often benefit from heavy centralized economic measures...that the US simply won't allow (the punishment for not going along with a US set plan is often quite brutal and implied like a sort of mob boss"

the message being clear "when we do it, it's just part of capitalism...when they do it, it's a communist threat"
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

Quote:
Are beehives and ant colonies unnatural? Cause they cooperate on a level we could hardly dream of.
elphenor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 12:27 AM   #425 (permalink)
Willowy Elven Boy
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: This Synth Kills Fascists
Posts: 13,799
Default

the US is an open society in that this is all public record now

soviet socialism was feared by the gov for the very reason that by some metrics it could be seen as a success, a model for how to break from Western dominance
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

Quote:
Are beehives and ant colonies unnatural? Cause they cooperate on a level we could hardly dream of.
elphenor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 12:38 AM   #426 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
the developed world would often benefit from heavy centralized economic measures...that the US simply won't allow
such as?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/
jwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 12:45 AM   #427 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
the US is an open society in that this is all public record now

soviet socialism was feared by the gov for the very reason that by some metrics it could be seen as a success, a model for how to break from Western dominance
Quite simply untrue lol

The soviets were seen as a threat ideologically because they opposed capitalism but also just geopolitically they were the only other major power left standing after ww2. It's very likely that the us and russia would've entered a cold war style standoff even if russia was capitalist. It's extremely naive to think the us only fears rivals based on their economic philosophy. Since the collapse of the soviet union the us and nato have continued the same basic "containment" tactics that we associate with the cold war. And since China has liberalized large aspects of their economy we only continue to have increasing tensions with them as their economy and geopolitical status rises.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/
jwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 08:45 PM   #428 (permalink)
Willowy Elven Boy
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: This Synth Kills Fascists
Posts: 13,799
Default

it's the entire thought process behind "containment"
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

Quote:
Are beehives and ant colonies unnatural? Cause they cooperate on a level we could hardly dream of.
elphenor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 07:56 AM   #429 (permalink)
Just Keep Swimming...
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: See signature...
Posts: 6,239
Default

In case anyone needs any "Dadvice":



Dad, How do I? Channel
__________________
See location...
Plankton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 09:05 AM   #430 (permalink)
Aficionado of Fine Filth
 
Psy-Fi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: You don't want to look in there.
Posts: 5,655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plankton View Post
In case anyone needs any "Dadvice":



Dad, How do I? Channel
Does he have any "Dadvice" on how not to derail a thread that he could give to the usual suspects around here?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norg View Post
yeah at the end of the day we are just a speck smaller then a grain of beach sand floating in a giant universe soup bowl and hell there might even be billions of bowls floating in a even bigger bowl ..???? :P

i wish the Human species can stop wasting time and see the bigger picture here




She's a Brick House
Psy-Fi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2021 Advameg, Inc.