elphenor

I play Peach though because auto-air float cancels skips all that, spacies (Fox and Falco) hurt my fingers, nothing sicker in all of videogames than a waveshine to dunk Falco combo still

edit here's a quick vid breaking down all the inputs:

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Oriphiel

I'm guessing you're new to competitive fighting games? If not, no offense, but you should be blushing after saying something like this to any player of any major fighting game franchise.

I'm actually kind of shocked that you think rigorous cancelling and quick succession inputs are unique to high level Smash play, or that the speed of Smash inputs are faster and more difficult to master than high level SF play.

Have you ever played Street Fighter, or watched any competitive matches? Attacks and blocks are very comparable in speed to Smash, and learning exactly what to input to minimize frames and avoid any possible lags after lands/certain techniques is just as important. In fact, Street Fighter 2 pretty much invented cancelling (people actually thought it was a bug when the game first came out: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...ing-wasnt-bug/).

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elphenor

the intended lag canceling that's in Melee may be directly influenced by Street Fighter

but it doesn't change the fact that when pushed to its limit Melee requires more precise inputs per second to play than Street Fighter, you can measure the APMs

what constitutes "technical" however is blurry granted, and what is difficult can vary from player to player, I just think it's interesting an intended party game can be almost up in the Starcraft 1 levels of APM

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elphenor

you want to blink forward, you double tap the stick in every fighter

but nah not in Melee, you have to do some jank ass directional air dodge into the ground that requires 4 inputs and a week minimum to learn because it's not even meant to be in the game

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Oriphiel

Judging by attacks per minute isn't a perfect gauge, as standard SF is about killing your opponent only two times, while standard Smash is about killing your opponent as many times as possible. The limited lives and stage space in a standard match make the allowance of errors and chance for recovery in SF is so much smaller, and the punishment for a mistake so much higher, even though the reflexive requirements are similar. Even if the high level APM in SF is less than Smash, the fact that it's even comparable despite the fundamental differences in styles is actually kind of a testament to how much complexity SF has in spite of its seeming simplicity and lack of Smash's spacial complexity.

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elphenor

as far as I'm aware they're not really comparable

a famously technical professional Falco player, Westballz, has been marked at hitting 400APM, that is actually professional Starcraft levels of button pushing

traditional fighting games are not requiring that kinda prolonged speed, which is why I say most technical

it's not to take anything away from Street Fighter and 1 frame links, and also impossible feats for mortals, there's no definition of what's the most impossible

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elphenor

Now what makes Melee just a superior game is DI and how the combo game is so jazzy, most combos are improvised on the spot rather than based on memorized sequences

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Oriphiel

You never answered whether you've played SF, or watched any SF competitions. I think you'd really like it if you gave it a chance.

SF is the same way. Each character has just a few moves, so few that you can basically learn to execute them all in like an hour or less. Just like with Smash, the complexity doesn't come from huge pre-set or memorized combos. It's not like Tekken, with uber-combos that people practice for years. The emphasis is much more on taking the few tools you're given, and learning to use and combine them free-form at the right moment with perfect timing.

If complexity gets you hard, you should see all of the weird ways people have learned to maneuver in Tekken. Play TTT2 and you'll see what I mean. Just one character has more complexity, more tech (both intentionally made by the devs and unintentional), more tricks to discover, than the entirety of Melee. I'm not even exaggerating. You wouldn't believe the insane streams of inputs people string together with utter perfection in just one or two seconds.

To be a top level player, you have to experiment with every strike, stance, counter, cancel, every single movement you can possibly make, and find every variation of how they all bleed together. Just the standard command list, the absolute basics that the game gives you before you learn advanced techniques and make your own combos, is like Stephen King novel long. And those are basically just the suggestions the devs put in for newbies.

Doubt you'd like it, though. High level play is much less about on-the-fly snap strikes, and much more about setting up the inescapable juggling sequences you've memorized. The APM is probably hilariously low, since experts can kill with just three or four hits to the head, and matches tend to end very quickly.

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elphenor

I have played SF, and I'm sure I would like it more if I played it more

but when you have 10 years of experience in one game and still suck (can't make it out of pools in locals suck) it is hard to be convinced into picking up another fighting game

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Oriphiel

One thing I miss about Smash is block rolling. Felt so good and responsive. I used to cheese mother fuckers with it all the time.

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