Surell

I really don't think the Beatles' music was all that super intellectual, and their music was certainly not more complex than the Beach Boys.

__________________

VEGANGELICA

Discussing which band's music was more complex would be a good way for me to learn more about their songs.

First, we'd have to agree on a method for judging musical complexity if this is to be a meaningful debate. I measure complexity in songs by looking at the conceptual depth and originality in the lyrics, and at the number of different musical techniques used.

I haven't done this analysis for all Beach Boys' and Beatles' songs, only those I've heard, yet based on those I conclude that the Beatles' music overall *is* more complex than the Beach Boys' music (but I still prefer the body of music created by the Beach Boys).

Perhaps we can have a "complexity" song-off to decide which band's music is more complex: one person gives an example of a Beatles' song that has certain complex qualities, and then someone offers up a Beach Boys' song that offers the same. Then vice versa.

For example, The Beatles' "Eleanor Rigby," like many of the Beatles' songs, does not revolve around the topic of simple romantic love and has instead a broader concept behind it, in this case a commentary on the loneliness and separateness in human lives. The lyrics use a combination of metaphor ("Waits at the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door") and descriptive, concrete examples of aloneness ("Look at him working, darning his socks in the night when there's nobody there") to build the song's meaning.

Finally, like some other songs by The Beatles', "Eleanor Rigby" uses the compositional technique of counterpoint, where the main tune and the cello play distinct, different melodies, to add musical depth to the music:


Eleanor Rigby- The Beatles - YouTube

The question I have is this: what is a Beach Boys' song that uses a more complex musical technique than just creating a melody with harmony, and does not involve the idea of romantic love in the song? If there is such a song, then The Beach Boys and The Beatles would each get 1 point and would be tied in the "complexity song-off."

Then we would just continue on, matching song to song, until we run out of songs! The band that fails to offer up an equivalent match would be the the one whose music overall is less complex.

^ This is my idea of great fun. I'd do it if I had unlimited time.

"Don't Talk (Put Your Head on my Shoulder)" doesn't sound at all complex to me, being about romantic love like almost all other songs pop artists write, and using (as far as I can tell) only a basic melody and some harmony, without any complex compositional techniques or unpredictable chord progression.

Like the person above said, whether one gets hit emotionally by a song is a very personal reaction and a song's emotional power can't be analyzed like "complexity" can.

All I know is that The Beatles' "Girl" does nothing for me emotionally, Il Duce, and rather annoys me, especially when Lennon with his thin little chilly and whiny voice says, "And I think of all the times I've tried so hard to leave her, and she will turn to me and start to cry," then goes on to describe the ways she humiliates him. (Maybe that's why you like it! ) I want to tell him, "Just leave her and be done with it!"

I do, however, like the Greek musical influences in "Girl." And apparently the concept behind the song is that it was a jab at Christianity and the way belief in Christianity makes people suffer.

__________________

Neapolitan

I haven't heard that until you mentioned it. I know George was at least half Irish-Catholic but choose to practice Hinduism later and was considered a secret Krishner by a memeber of the Hare Krishners. John apparently struggled with and questioned things both religious and political, and I don't know if he ever considered himself affiliated with any denomination. When ever John says something it is hard to say what he meant at the time if it wasn't clear because he spoke how he felt at the time he might have a different perspective later. But he did like double meanings (and also double-entendres.) I don't have any quotes available on what John about "Girl" but I don't think it's that Christianity makes people suffer but that the idea in Christianity about longsuffering "pain will lead to pleasure..." also works into how men are tortured when they fall madly in love with women and it doesn't work out to their expectation. He might be writing about who he felt about religion at the time but those ideas in the lyrics. But he was also writing about men who really don't follow your "Just leave her and be done with it!" advice.

__________________

VEGANGELICA

Yes, I think you are very right that what I'm liking in The Beach Boys' music is the sunshine pop style and the exquisite harmony, starrynight.

"She's Leaving Home" by the Beatles doesn't seem to be about a *real* person to me, and she is described in third person, so this song makes me feel like a voyeur on the life of a fictional woman leaving home, rather than inviting me *into* her life as if I were she.

I feel the Beatles' lyrics about people often involve exaggeration to create an artificial, over-the-top portrayal of characters who don't feel real to me, so I don't step into their shoes easily. (Think of the "Fool" or "Lucy" or a host of other characters they describe.)

The Beatles' lyrics are often like strange, modern art paintings, and I love that quality about them. The Beach Boys' songs are much more down-to-earth and their best songs in my view are like watching a beloved home video, showing a real moment frozen in time:


The Beach Boys - I'd Love Just Once To See You (Stereo) - YouTube

All very possible. I'll see if I can find the source of the information about "Girl" being a criticism of Christianity.

Here it is:

__________________

Surell

This is my third time trying to get this in, but i'm prevailing this time.

Conceptual Depth: To judge this, we have to enter the mind of Wilson while composing Pet Sounds and SMiLE: Drugged out, antisocial, perfectionist, and a sensitive artist guy. On the two albums, he strives for innocence, youth, love, and triumph; things he was lacking. His label, which he shared with the Beatles, didn't want to put out his form of experimentation, likely because it wasn't the same kind his colleagues were finding success with. The drugs were feeding into his paranoid state and his music at the same time. No one was approving of his art, aside from Van **** Parks, so he was feeling more depressed and straying from the innocence in which he was sheltered as a youth. So the music represented his desires to be young and pure, to love everyone, and to find victory; after all, there's a lot of 50's-early 60's influence in his songwriting (motown, R&B, gospel, some country and jazz, etc.). The classical complexity and lyrical themes display his turmoil in meeting these desires.

BTW: According to Wikipedia, the album is based mostly on Acid and Zen philosophy, along with a zen riddle foundation called "koan" which is supposed to "free one from preconceptions."

Lyrical Originality: Though it seems the lyrics are simply about California summer love (which is really only the case on Pet Sounds), there's a tinge of doubt and anxiety throughout. The first point made in "God Only Knows" is that, though right now he's head over heels in love with his woman, helpless even, he doesn't know how he'll feel tomorrow. He'll be miserable, and he wants to assure her of this, but the possibility of the infatuation dying is recognized. This also arises on "Wouldn't It Be Nice," which looks at ideal infatuation while realizing the reality of most relationships. Now, on SMiLE, pretty much all this changes. Sure, "Good Vibrations" is pretty much a love song, but the writing is psychedelic, based on spiritual "vibrations" he feels from a very special lady. Aside from this, many of the songs deal with varied subject matter, or sometimes a more abstract kind; told through themes, harmonies, or word repetition. I mean, there's songs about eating your vegetables and the joy it can bring a lad ("Vega-tables") or "Heroes and Villains," a constantly shifting ballad about a lover he lost and how he lives amongst chaos- this is more face value evaluation. There's also "Child is Father of the Man," which merely repeats those words in an intriguing melody. This sounds boring in text, i'm sure, but it's one of the best tracks on SMiLE.

Musical Techniques: The way to see it is opposite of the Beatles of this era: They were pop-chameleons, who used various styles in a pop songwriting format for experimental value; they meandered a little into Classical composition, but used it mostly as a backdrop for more Rock/Pop records/songs. It was a more overt manner of experimentation/eclecticism compared to Wilson's way. The Beach Boys began practically with a classical template for writing and composing: focusing on shifts, harmonies that compliment in contradiction rather than uniformity (a theme of the music), and incorporating pop elements for the music's tone and instrumentation. From there you see what genres you'd like to blend into the composition: There's country ("Cabin Essence"), western saloon playing ("Heroes and Villains") gospel in the harmonies, R&B and Motown in the lyricism and some instrumentation, a little folk in some lyrics and playing (though a little lush), jazz in instrumentation, and, of course, the rock and pop undertones.

That's my thesis.

I'd use Heroes and Villains, but i'm scared it'll break the romance rule, so here's my contribution:



Child is Father of the Man. If you look up the Brian Wilson version, he has more lyrics, about a boy making his way in the world and whatnot.

The vocal harmonies are complex enough, jumping out at you and then soothing immediately after. There's a couple of shifts as well, a mark of Classical level writing, or at least jazz. The theme of the song is evocative/thought provoking, and it does it without even having to use more than six words. As i said, the theme is further explored on Wilson's own version, which sounds somewhat different as well, but i chose this one.

__________________

VEGANGELICA

Hmm...interesting thesis, Surell.

I concede, based on your arguments and the Wikipedia article, that I have not been giving The Beach Boys enough credit for the conceptual depth behind their songs.

Note, though, that the Wikipedia article on the Smile album says Writer Bill Tobelman, who first "argued that it was heavily influenced by Wilson's interest in Zen philosophy — notably the Zen technique of using absurd humor and paradoxical riddles (the koan) to liberate the mind from preconceptions — and that Smile as a whole can be interpreted as an extended Zen koan," later "modified his theory upon discovering the construction of the Smile riddle was based upon Arthur Koestler's book, The Act of Creation." So, unfortunately, the album does *not* have a zoan riddle, as you claimed. (It would have been cool if it had.)

I'm most convinced of the deeper conceptual complexity behind The Beach Boys' music after reading this about Smile: "Wilson and Parks intended Smile to be explicitly American in style and subject, a direct reaction to the British dominance of popular music at the time. It was supposedly conceived as a musical journey across America from east to west, beginning at Plymouth Rock and ending in Hawaii, as well as traversing some of the great themes of modern American history and culture, including the impact of white settlement on native Americans, the influence of the Spanish, the Wild West, and the opening up of the country by railroad and highway."

I don't think they produced music that reflects the depth of thought behind it, but there was more complexity involved in the conception of the music than I realized.

Lyrical originality -- I'm still not convinced The Beach Boys' music had much. Repetition of a simple phrase doesn't seem terribly original to me. Most of the songs by The Beach Boys use trite phrases or, when attempting to be humorous, simply succeed in sounding goofy to me.

Musical Techniques -- I'm most convinced by your argument here, but I'd say that The Beach Boys' use of new recording techniques (8 track tapes) at the time was what perhaps makes their music outstanding, since it allowed them to create music that wouldn't be possible live. Also, I'm impressed by Brian Wilson's tenacious, exacting work recording tiny sections of songs and splicing them together, devoting many hours to do that.

I don't love the sound of any of the resulting songs on the Smile album except for that of "Good Vibrations" because I feel the production of the music (the wandering and disjointed sound) becomes too much of the focus compared to the meaning behind the music. However, I like your argument that they incorporated music from many genres.

Yes, "Heroes and Villains" would have broken the dreaded "no romantic songs" rule, so it's a good thing you didn't offer it up to counter "Eleanor Rigby."

I concede that "Child is Father of the Man" has musical shifts and jazzy elements, with a muted trumpet being my favorite. So although I do not like the resulting chopped-up sound lacking a distinct focal highpoint, your argument that they were using complex musical techniques holds.



My conclusion:

The Beatles - 1 point (for "Eleanor Rigby")
The Beach Boys - 1 point (for "Child is The Father of the Man")

__________________