Is Pop Music Really So Simple?

Sneer · 08-10-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Middle eight
Verse (Usually in a higher key)
Chorus (Usually in a higher key)

Behold, almost every pop song ever.

This type of post really pisses me off.

If pop music is so simple, where's your effort? The internet's made it quite easy to get a good pop song out there, so do it.

Arm-chair critics sit here saying how it's so simple, but there's an art to writing a great pop song. It involves dynamics, lyricism, the correct application of hooks, time signatures that carry the listener's attention, melody, production techniques... there are so many elements that go in to making a great pop song, yet of course people will pass it off as easy because it isn't 'rawwwwwk'. Writing a decent pop song is not easy.

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 08-10-2011, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

If pop music is so simple, where's your effort? The internet's made it quite easy to get a good pop song out there, so do it.

Maybe if I could afford the silicone tits, and the massive hype campaign. Even if it's 'out there' it doesn't matter because unless it's a freak show attention grabber like Rebecca Black, or somebody who just happens to be 'discovered' like Justin Biebar, it doesn't matter how good you are, or aren't.

Quote:

Arm-chair critics sit here saying how it's so simple, but there's an art to writing a great pop song. It involves dynamics, lyricism, the correct application of hooks, time signatures that carry the listener's attention, melody, production techniques... there are so many elements that go in to making a great pop song, yet of course people will pass it off as easy because it isn't 'rawwwwwk'. Writing a decent pop song is not easy.

Dynamics - everything has to be mixed down to mids, and compressed to be an even flow of volume. Where you can find dynamics in that, I don't know.

Lyricisim - Uh... "It's gettin' hot in here... so take off all your clothes"

Correct Application of Hooks - constant inane repetition of them works. Take Just Dance for example. The second half of that song is NOTHING but the word dance being panned right then left then right then left.

Time Signatures - Well, you have two choices: 3/4 and 4/4. Chose wisely, I guess...

Melody - Essentially, this is how low to mix the melody in order to make it seem like it's non-existent. MAYBE have some instruments there but usually in the modern electro-pop world, it has to be a 5 second loop of voice over a drum machine that NEVER varies patterns.

Production Techniques - again, 'industry technique' which is more used as a filter for record companies, and radio than it is, in a sense, something that relates to the listener/output.

With that said, ANY form of music is complicated. Music itself is a difficult beast to manifest. However, in comparison to the vast majority of music stylings out there, pop is sometimes retardedly simple, and effective non-the-less. Since quality is arguable, I think any song which you can string out to 5 seconds of melody if you arrange every piece in a row, and is 3 minutes long, is simple. Not to disrespect pop, but more out of respect to things like classical which obviously are well more complex(generally).

Sneer · 08-10-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Maybe if I could afford the silicone tits, and the massive hype campaign. Even if it's 'out there' it doesn't matter because unless it's a freak show attention grabber like Rebecca Black, or somebody who just happens to be 'discovered' like Justin Biebar, quality won't really matter.

Writing a great pop song IS easy. Pop songs are 99% post production. It's more knowing the 'in-techniques' that you must conform to in order to be considered 'professional' or 'legitimate'. Which is the game of a bourgeoisie industry uses to protect itself from having to take risks on free spirited musicians.

As for what you said:

Dynamics - everything has to be mixed down to mids, and compressed to be an even flow of volume. Where you can find dynamics in that, I don't know.

Lyricisim - Uh... "It's gettin' hot in here... so take off all your clothes"

Correct Application of Hooks - constant inane repetition of them works. Take Just Dance for example. The second half of that song is NOTHING but the word dance being panned right then left then right then left.

Time Signatures - Well, you have two choices: 3/4 and 4/4. Chose wisely, I guess...

Melody - Essentially, this is how low to mix the melody in order to make it seem like it's non-existent. MAYBE have some instruments there but usually in the modern electro-pop world, it has to be a 5 second loop of voice over a drum machine that NEVER varies patterns.

Production Techniques - again, 'industry technique' which is more used as a filter for record companies, and radio than it is, in a sense, something that relates to the listener/output.

With that said, ANY form of music is complicated. Music itself is a difficult beast to manifest. However, in comparison to the vast majority of music stylings out there, pop is sometimes retardedly simple, and effective non-the-less. Since quality is arguable, I think any song which you can string out to 5 seconds of melody if you arrange every piece in a row, and is 3 minutes long, is simple. Not to disrespect pop, but more out of respect to things like classical which obviously are well more complex(generally).

Everything you've said here refers to chart music created to rake in as much sales for record companies as possible. There are vast amounts of bands out there that have made the creation of a GENUINELY GREAT pop songs an art form.

Let's take the most obvious example - the Beatles. Throughout their recording career they wrote some truly exceptional 3-minute bursts of pop music that expertly made use of melody, hooks, lyricism etc to maximise listener engagement. Songs such as Help! utilised various components essential to a great pop music and they're rightly remembered as one of the greatest bands of all time.

Not all pop music is top 40 fare. You have bands like The Smiths who essentially made a living off pop songs. They just constructed them in a way that communicated with their audience.

Their is a real craft in writing great pop songs, Rebecca Black's Friday is not an example of a great pop song...

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra · 08-10-2011, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

Everything you've said here refers to chart music created to rake in as much sales for record companies as possible. There are vast amounts of bands out there that have made the creation of a GENUINELY GREAT pop songs an art form.

Let's take the most obvious example - the Beatles. Throughout their recording career they wrote some truly exceptional 3-minute bursts of pop music that expertly made use of melody, hooks, lyricism etc to maximise listener engagement. Songs such as Help! utilised various components essential to a great pop music and they're rightly remembered as one of the greatest bands of all time.

Not all pop music is top 40 fare. You have bands like The Smiths who essentially made a living off pop songs. They just constructed them in a way that communicated with their audience.

Their is a real craft in writing great pop songs, Rebecca Black's Friday is not an example of a great pop song...

Good point. Beatles actually were quite complex at points(by pop standards), and played with time signatures in bits('Happiness is a Warm Gun').

Then again, it's not an issue of quality, it's an issue of simplicity. Since Beatles were kind of used to define what 'pop' is it's hard to say that the entire body of their work was entirely relegated to that definition.

Even then they were vastly more simple than say Ornette Coleman. So really since 'how much simple is simple' is an impossible debate I'll just concede to pop music being incredibly simplistic compared to the whole spectrum.

Sneer · 08-10-2011, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Good point. Beatles actually were quite complex at points(by pop standards), and played with time signatures in bits('Happiness is a Warm Gun').

Then again, it's not an issue of quality, it's an issue of simplicity. Since Beatles were kind of used to define what 'pop' is it's hard to say that the entire body of their work was entirely relegated to that definition.

Even then they were vastly more simple than say Ornette Coleman. So really since 'how much simple is simple' is an impossible debate I'll just concede to pop music being incredibly simplistic compared to the whole spectrum.

I would say a 20-minute psychedelic freakout has more simplicity to it than the construction of a good pop song. I agree, the likes of jazz and classical are far more complex, but I do not think pop music is simple, and it irritates me when people brush it off as such.

Neapolitan · 08-10-2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

I would say a 20-minute psychedelic freakout has more simplicity to it than the construction of a good pop song. I agree, the likes of jazz and classical are far more complex, but I do not think pop music is simple, and it irritates me when people brush it off as such.

There is nothing wrong with calling Pop Music simple. It's not so simple where is the repetitiveness gets annoying but then it's not so complicate where the song develops like art music or a psychedelic freakout - baby. I don't mind if people brush it off because the artist is irritating or a particular song is irritating. But if it's groovy people should dig it man, brushing off for no reason isn't cool baby you dig like freak out man.

Howard the Duck · 08-11-2011, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LandonShirwin

Hey now! You forgot 6/8! haha

6/8 is the same as 3/4, only the time division is different

starrynight · 08-11-2011, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Maybe if I could afford the silicone tits, and the massive hype campaign. Even if it's 'out there' it doesn't matter because unless it's a freak show attention grabber like Rebecca Black, or somebody who just happens to be 'discovered' like Justin Biebar, it doesn't matter how good you are, or aren't.

There is at least as much hype behind the most famous rock musicians who people seem to jump on the bandwagon with, in some ways more as people can get all snobby and elitist about them. And image is arguably even more important in rock than it is in pop. If you think Rebecca Black is a freak show I daren't hear what you think of some metal groups lol.

starrynight · 08-11-2011, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Middle eight
Verse (Usually in a higher key)
Chorus (Usually in a higher key)

Behold, almost every pop song ever.

Formulas are actually very useful for creativity, the most creative artists use them. Arguably the greatest musical geniuses ever (in classical music) used well worn structures to guide their creativity. It gave them the backbone to their compositions they needed and allowed them to be very creative within those structures. So your argument based on the structure of songs is actually very simplistic and irrelevant.

GuitarBizarre · 08-11-2011, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starrynight

Formulas are actually very useful for creativity, the most creative artists use them. Arguably the greatest musical geniuses ever (in classical music) used well worn structures to guide their creativity. It gave them the backbone to their compositions they needed and allowed them to be very creative within those structures. So you're argument based on the structure of songs is actually very simplistic and irrelevant.

1 - I didn't MAKE an argument, I made a STATEMENT.
2 - I've studied music at degree level for 3 years, I'll have a degree next year. My degree will be titled Ba(hons) Popular Musics.

In other words, don't assume you can put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head, I know damned well what I'm saying. Especially since the units that comprise my degree encompass primarily critical theory and composition in both popular and classical styles.

Edit: Also, you could at least have argued without misusing the apostrophe. The word you meant is "your".