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-   -   Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread (https://www.musicbanter.com/prog-psychedelic-rock/27436-frank-zappa-appreciation-thread.html)

jadis 08-28-2021 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 2182931)
That is not what I said. I didn't say Frank just deemed them "pretentious." Zappa had a decent amount of self-awareness and often express reasonable and legitimate critism against those things mentioned. Frank Zappa didn't "deem" those things "pretentious" willy nilly and in the deeming of those thing "pretentious" thus made them so.



Then you reduce the meaning of "pretentiousness" to something not being liked. Frank Zappa doesn't like "X, Y, and Z" and ironically there are people who don't like Frank Zappa. Who's to say who is more disliked? ... err "pretentious?"

Seems like the source of our disagreement is that you implicitly view ideas as reified essences, as independent entities; whereas I view them as sites of contestation, definitionally tied to a certain perspective that puts down a stake contra other perspectives.

I indeed don't particularly care for the term "pretentious" - the perspectives it's tied to are usually not ones I'm impressed with.

As opposed to Zappa. What a talent.

I'm a Beefheart guy, not a Zappa guy, but there's so much to admire about Frank. My "unpopular opinion" about him would be that his very finest hour was his very last release, the orchestral Yellow Shark.

Frownland 08-28-2021 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis (Post 2182971)
My "unpopular opinion" about him would be that his very finest hour was his very last release, the orchestral Yellow Shark.

I prefer The Perfect Stranger but I agree on his orchestral works being his best.

jadis 08-28-2021 07:54 AM

Yeah that's definitely one of his masterpieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 2182935)
Bruh, everyone on MB is basically a goddamn nerd.

Mindfulness might be the one exception. He seems like a wonderfully eccentric dude but I wouldn't call him a nerd.

adidasss 08-28-2021 08:42 AM

He collects and sells cards. :/

Guybrush 08-28-2021 08:43 AM

The point that seems perpetually lost on Terrapin and probably Mucha is it's not Crew Slut. It's every song that features women in any capacity. It's in the bovine perspiration of Dynah Moe-Humm and in the tiny mustaches of the Catholic Girls. Frank seems to want them sexually (only), but at the same time can't help shaming them in some derogatory way. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but the big picture is certainly a misogynist one.

Who would think a rock star from the 60s with song titles like Easy Meat and Crew Slut would be misogynist? Controversial, I know.

If you're locked into your position or simply don't agree, that's fine. We don't have to agree.

Terrapin_Station 08-28-2021 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 2182964)
It's the level of seriousness that the uncritical fanboy stance deserves.

"Critical" doesn't mean "negative." It implies analysis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush (Post 2182981)
The point that seems perpetually lost on Terrapin and probably Mucha is it's not Crew Slut. It's every song that features women in any capacity. It's in the bovine perspiration of Dynah Moe-Humm and in the tiny mustaches of the Catholic Girls. Frank seems to want them sexually (only), but at the same time can't help shaming them in some derogatory way. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but the big picture is certainly a misogynist one.

Who would think a rock star from the 60s with song titles like Easy Meat and Crew Slut would be misogynist? Controversial, I know.

If you're locked into your position or simply don't agree, that's fine. We don't have to agree.

I don't usually agree to disagree though. I want you to not be wrong, to not have unsupportable misconceptions, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubber soul (Post 2182963)
Pretentious and disliked aren't necessarily the same thing. I happen to think Morrissey is pretentious too and yet I love the Smiths (and even some of Morrissey's solo material). Zappa, I'm not so sure. I know he flipped out the cast of SNL when he made his one and only appearance there and he talked in parables at the PMRC hearings. The music still stands out as occasionally brilliant though.

It's dumb as a criticism because of how the term is conventionally defined: "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis (Post 2182971)
I view [ideas] as sites of contestation,

??

jadis 08-28-2021 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2182993)
??

A conceptual "site" where stuff be contested?

I thought that it's one of my many calques from French and while it is that too, a Google search in English turns up "about 136,000 results" and in quite a few of those, "sites" refers not to physical but conceptual spaces.

"The sessions will feature a multi-faceted reflection on the ways in which the liberal arts become sites of contestation and sources of consolation in times of historical crisis." - you get the idea.

The larger framework is of course Nietzsche as read by Deleuze and Foucault.

Terrapin_Station 08-28-2021 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis (Post 2182997)
A conceptual "site" where stuff be contested?

I thought that it's one of my many calques from French and while it is that too, a Google search in English turns up "about 136,000 results" and in quite a few of those, "sites" refers not to physical but conceptual spaces.

"The sessions will feature a multi-faceted reflection on the ways in which the liberal arts become sites of contestation and sources of consolation in times of historical crisis." - you get the idea.

The larger framework is of course Nietzsche as read by Deleuze and Foucault.

I'm not at all a fan of continentalism, and I'm a physicalist, so . . . lol

Concepts are physical things in particular brains in my view.

Guybrush 08-28-2021 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2182991)
I don't usually agree to disagree though. I want you to not be wrong, to not have unsupportable misconceptions, etc.

You can probably imagine that as a Zappa fan, I've had this discussion before. Both with other people and in my own brain for a long time. I've been on your side of the discussion for years and years.

Learning more about misogyny and becoming more aware of it is an important part of what's brought me to my current position on the issue. I believe I see something that you're probably blind to and discussing here isn't likely to change that.

Maybe you should ask your wife about it.

Frownland 08-28-2021 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2182990)
"Critical" doesn't mean "negative." It implies analysis.

Where did I say that criticism and negativity are the same? I simply said you were being uncritical.


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