It had to happen... Prog Wars!
 

No, not a "Celebrity Deathmatch" style battle between Rick Wakeman and Peter Gabriel, (though that WOULD be cool --- hmmm...) :) but following on from Unknown Soldier's "Metal wars" and of course the actual "Album wars" thread, I thought why not have one JUST for prog albums?

And here it is.

You know how it goes: PM me your album choice, one album goes up against another, people vote for each album and then it's "two albums enter, one album leaves", to paraphrase Mad Max. Drawing on the rules of the original Album Wars (thanks Electrophonic Tonic) it'll be first come, first served and if it's a close-run thing then the voting can continue until one album wins, or loses. In the event however of there being a clear winner from the outset (let's say, out of 10 votes one album gets 8) then that album is declared the victor and removed from the current battle, and we go on to the next.

I surely don't need to say it, but since this is "Prog wars", the only albums accepted for battle will be legitimate, recognised prog albums, though this does not by any stretch mean that an unknown album cannot be included. Just make sure it's prog --- rock or metal is fine, symphonic, orchestral, whatever, but it must be prog.

In the event that I'm unsure if a submitted album meets the criteria for being prog, I will open it up to the members and we can vote firstly on whether or not it should be included. Yay! Democracy, eh?

So let's go then: remember, first up gets first crack.

Disclaimer: "Prog Wars" is not an original Trollheart idea, but he is robbing it for this thread...

Okay, we have our first battle, thanks to RVCA, and it could be a good one!

Close to the edge by Yes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-Yes-close.jpg

vs

Animals by Pink Floyd
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ls-Frontal.jpg

So get voting, and let's see who wins this first round!

Animals is a very nice album, but it's one vote for Close to the Edge from me :)

One for Animals! Some of the best Waters-era Floyd music, especially Dogs . Dark, angry, and very strong, they lived up to the challenge of a changing music scene and created one hell of an album. When I first heard this as a kid (Christmas present! Second best music gift only with The Beatles' White Album topping it), I was reading Animal Farm for a Book Report, so it all connected perfectly!

Yes are alright, and Close to the Edge is one of their strongest, though.

There's a song called Dogs part 2?

Edited for correction...need to remind myself not to post shortly after waking up...

Many Hours Later/Finally found the Source for my Wake-up Mistake Edit: Damn those 8-Track memories! Seriously, Dogs was actually split into two parts on the 8-Track. To those who are younger than me, you now know the reason why 8-Tracks failed.

Do we have to start with Close to the Edge? I'll never be able to vote for anything else! :laughing:

It was a bad idea to start with the most revered prog album ever.

Hey, I said first come first served, and RVCA was quickest off the mark!

So far, the scores are tied at

Close to the edge = 1
Animals = 1

As an overall album, I'd say that Animals takes the cake with the beautiful moments that it has (not to say that Close to the Edge doesn't have any lovely moments, just that it has less). However, this is PROG wars, and Animals is far less proggy than Close to the Edge, and as a prog album, Close to the Edge blows Animals clear out of the water. If this were the album wars thread, I'd vote for Floyd, but since this is a Prog Wars thread, my vote goes to Yes.

Close to the Edge - 2
Animals - 1

My exact thoughts. Animals is the better album, but Close to the Edge is far more of a prog album imo.

Close to the Edge - 3
Animals - 1

Oh shoot, I read and re-read the rules, but is this like the traditional album wars or is it like metal wars where a set of albums face off one at a time? I assumed it was the former or else I wouldn't have picked what many consider to be the titans of the prog world.

If it's the latter, we may want to call off this battle for the time being.

I'm going Pink Floyd's Animals. One of the most important albums to me in my library. Mostly for Les Claypool's full album cover of it, but the original is rather untouchable.

Yes is fantastic, but as some folks feel Close to the Edge is unbeatable, I'd say I'd have a hell of a time voting against Animals.

Close to the Edge - 3
Animals - 2

Animals is great but Close to the Edge is the next level up and still better than any of Pink Floyd's best JUST.

Close to the Edge -4
Animals -2

Tbh I'm not sure what the difference is, but I think this is working out okay, so we may as well stay with this format. That's what I get for grabbing someone else's idea and running with it while also carrying the proverbial pair of scissors! D'oh! :banghead:

Well it boils down to whether you want to run this thread in one of two ways:

1) On and album v. album basis, where each "war" is a separate event.

2) On a pool basis, where each "war" involves several battles between a group of albums. (see the current format of metal wars)

Yeah, I reckon option 1 is the best to go for, though I am interested, down the line, in doing a "face-off" style, sudden death or whatever between what emerge as the best overall albums.

Also, a league table would be something I'd try to set up, if this gets popular enough.

Close to the edge is definitely more proggy, but animals is the better overall album. My vote goes to Floyd.

I can't wait til First Utterance beats everything.

In a Prog Folk Wars thread, sure... but in all of Prog Rock-dom? Naww

I don't think of First Utterance as a prog album at all.

Folk Prog?

I'm no genre genius, but I think of it as a psychedelic folk album.

I see it as progressive folk with heavy elements of rock, classical, medieval, and world music. Certainly isn't tame enough to be called psychedelic folk imo.

Why do you think psychedelic folk means it's tame? Have you ever heard the sonic psychedelic experiments of early Amon Düül, Brainticket or Cromagnon? Comus certainly has more in common with those than the classic prog bands of that time.

edit :

To me, Comus' First Utterance fits the bill.

Yeah but wouldn't it be hard to argue that First Utterance doesn't also fit the Progressive Rock bill?

RYM:

Of course genres are not exclusive of eachother which is part why genre discussions are so difficult or even futile. I'm no more an authority on what genre First Utterance belongs to than you or anyone else are. I can only argue from my point of view. I feel like I can clearly hear First Utterance's artistic psychedelic and folk heritage, but prog less so and I just don't think that these guys set out to make a prog record when they recorded this album. I don't know if that's ultimately true. It's just what I think/believe.

edit :

Just out of curiosity, I tried to find a little more information. I found an interview with Roger Wooten who is one of the Comus guys.

Here he mentions influences. Bert Jansch and John Renbourn are folk artists. The Incredible String Band is the psychedelic folk band. There's no mention of prog rockers here.

Source : http://www.prog-sphere.com/2010/08/2...wootton-comus/

Okay, Comusaholics, can we bring the conversation back to the original topic? I know you're all eager to discuss Comus, but I'd like to know if there are any more votes for the two albums, as this is currently the status: not a runaway success for Yes by any means, and a few more votes could really change the tide, either way.

Close to the edge - 4
Animals - 2

So, to quote Twelfth Night from "Creepshow" --- Anymore for anymore?
Also, anyone with ideas for the next battle, don't be shy...

Pile another vote on Close to the Edge. I've never understood the insane hype for Animals-- yeah it's a good album but it pales in comparison to Pink Floyd's more well-known stuff and even, I'd argue, Meddle. I don't find it very memorable, but CttE is just insanely fun to listen to. You've got a group of some very groove-oriented, very technically-skilled musicians all jamming together on three epic tracks-- every time I listen to the album I focus on a different musician and discover something new and titillating.

In Animals' defense, Waters' lyrics are much more engaging than Anderson's abstract(nonsensical) narratives.

Perhaps true, but I find Anderson's way of writing lyrics for CttE, by basically putting together words which sound nice and "paint" the right pictures, to be a pretty original way of writing songs. :)

While I respect the talent in Yes, in a way I find Anderson the stop to fully enjoying their music. He can write some good lyrics, and has a good voice most of the time (Sometimes those high notes can grate on me, though) but his peaceful mystical style was not really my preference. Close to the Edge is understandably the highlight of Yes for a lot of their listeners, but I'm more with Fragile (now if that was the competition, I may have a harder time deciding).

The anger and doom in Animals is far more to my listening compared to Close to the Edge. The seriously epic Dogs and the aggressive Sheep are my favorites, with the latter featuring some of the strongest guitar riffing on a Floyd album. This is where I think Roger Waters is at his best.

My guess is that in Animals, Pink Floyd created an album that was angry but with sharp wit and good observations that was not a radio favorite - you know how people like to choose the albums without the over-played songs (no matter how good those are). Also, taking a historical look, it was a very surprising album for the time that was really good. The challenge to be bolder and more relevant was there, the Floyd took it, and succeeded with that album in my opinion. Although Punk shove Prog and Metal out of the picture, it was Animals that surprised a lot of people enough for some to give the Post-Syd Pink Floyd a second look.

Also, the bite of Waters' lyrics (no pun intended) is pretty sharp and perfect with the music.

I'm still more of a Syd era listener, and after that time I can say Meddle is still a favorite of mine (Still possibly my favorite Pink Floyd album, due mainly to "Echoes" and for sounding more of a group effort) but I think that Animals was a major rebound from Wish You Were Here. Possibly the last real solid Pink Floyd album (I like The Wall and The Final Cut, but...)

Animals is one of the handful of albums that can bring tears to my eyes. That's why I shout from rooftops about it. Because it touched me... especially the lyrics, but the instrumentation is perfect as well. Dogs does it for me, the rest is bonus. Animals is one of the most important albums made as far as I'm concerned. But yeah I don't know what everyone else's reasons are...

I find it hard to describe in words the genius of Close to the Edge. Composing and making the music was a highly collaborative community effort by the whole band who basically made up the songs as they went along and recorded them. It should've been a chaotic mess, but it turned out one of the most beautiful rock albums ever made. The dynamics of the music, the harmonies, the coming and going of musical themes with slight changes .. it just has so much of interest going on in it. With that much stuff going on musically and considering the subject matter, it's an incredibly ambitious album and when hearing about it, one might think it juggles too many things at once, but they actually managed to get it all together beautifully. When asked in an interview, Bill Bruford (drummer at the time) claims he still doesn't understand how they managed to get that album made.

Not my favourite prog album of all time, but definetly way up there.

As a side note on Yes and their other albums, I actually prefer The Yes Album over Fragile.

bummer - my fave Yes album against my fave PF album

it's a tie

so i'm not voting

Alright, I don't really listen to prog, and I am not participating in this battle, but I'm idly reading it, and if you make a vote, update it in your post or it becomes confusing who is winning. So, at this point I think it's...

Close to the Edge - 5
Animals - 4

That's right, prog is too complex for you.

I enjoy Close to the Edge as an album more than Animals. But when the battle is based on prog, no one beats Close to the Edge. It is THE prog album. The reverb on the 'Get up, get down' section in the title track and the first transition in 'And You And I' are some of my favorite moments in prog.

Close to the Edge- 6
Animals- 4

Okay well, CttE is edging (sorry!) ahead, and I think if it gets another four votes (and Animals doesn't get any more) I'll declare it the winner. So let's have your votes to wrap this up, as I have a very interesting choice for the second battle...

Current standings, with no votes in the last day or so, as follows:

Yes --- Close to the edge --- 6 votes
Pink Floyd --- Animals --- 4 votes

It's hardly conclusive, but if there are no further votes I'll take this as a result, and move on to the next battle. I'll give it a few hours, but if there's nothing by this evening we'll move onto the next one.