swim

I'm talking big picture. Past 30 years of who's efforts have gone farther. Immediate impact is Ramones but the back lining of what makes hardcore special[for me at least] is the parts of it that lean more towards the Husker Du influence and such. The parts that are experimental and make you say wow.

My point was that there was a band who could write and had big impact and was in the same scene at the same time. The main reason why I even said anything was because they don't get enough respect. I mean you hadn't even heard of them.

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cardboard adolescent

Wire certainly does deserve more respeck. But then, so does Pere Ubu. And countless other post-punk bands and various other scattered experimental bands that have been forgotten over time.

Moon Pix

They were both influencial. Equally influencial on bands that followed.

Neither of them influenced me.

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Moon Pix

The biggest influence on punk rock was the fact that most of them could barely play their instruments. The lack of chops was more influencial than any band.

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Strummer521

True...but of course, The Ramones were the first to go ahead and play with a total disregard for their utter lack of skill and experience. They kind of showed others you didn't need chops...just the will to pick up and play. The commonly accepted year that punk really broke through as a widespread genre was '77, yet they had their first record out in '76. Johnny Ramone has said that when they started they set out to be a bubblegum band...but then they became essentially the flagship band of Legs McNeil and the other founders of Punk magazine, the publication which brought the term into widespread use, and was possibly the first place the word punk was used to describe a style of music.

Moon Pix

In a rock band context yes but the Godz and the Shaggs were making a racket years before the Ramones. Their stuff couldnt be called punk though, it couldnt be called anything.

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Kevorkian Logic

This isn't about who influenced you, no one cares about if they influenced you are not. It's about which is the better band and that is the Ramones.

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Urban Hat€monger ?

I`d say musically they were about equal. Although I would have given it to the Pistols had Cook & Jones not been so under the thumb with McLaren towards the end and let Lydon use the songs that eventually ended up on the first P.I.L album instead of that f*cking awful film soundtrack.

Although the Ramones were around first it should be noted that the Pistols achieved more in their first 6 months than the Ramones did in 6 years.
The Ramones needed what was happening in the UK to establish themselves.The Pistols managed it by themselves.

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Moon Pix

One thing thats often surprised me is that free jazz isnt mentioned ver often when refferring to pre-punk music. If you listen to the guitars solos by a lot of the bands that actually used them you begin to hear similarities between those and the sax solos you might hear on a John Coltrane album, lots of notes that don't fit into the songs key and just a very chaotic sound. Its pretty much the same idea as free-jazz soloing.

Black Flag is a good example of this.

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cardboard adolescent

Basically, you have to draw a line as to how far back you're going to trace it. I'd call Trout Mask Replica a proto-punk album, and all they did was take free jazz aesthetics and apply it to rock n' roll. From there you could trace it back to Coltrane and Coleman and all those crazy cats, but is there really a point? I mean, Stravinsky was one of the first to include atonal and abrasive passages in his music, but I wouldn't really say The Rite of Spring was a proto-punk symphony...