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Old 05-16-2007, 08:35 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tjtech12 View Post
man, dude, if that **** went to my school i'd be so ****ing mad. Rise Against's new disc is better than siren song, at least in my opinion. the sound is more like revolutions (the last one on Fat wreck) but less harsh. and there's some experimentalism. and yeah, that distro thing is bull****. its about the production and extra moola.
Well, 90%+ of my school is like that. In government class we did some mock Congress thing and I was the only Democrat out of over 50 kids. Well, a couple of my friends are also Democrats but they decided to skip that day. Our county is over 80% Republican. You get used to it, but conservative bull**** still pisses me off. I'll admit it makes me feel pretty good knowing I'm one of the only sane people in the midst of a bunch of backwards, ignorant, bigoted rednecks. It shouldn't, but it does.

And I'll have to check out the new Rise Against CD. I definitely liked their records of Fat better than Siren Song, but it was still pretty good.
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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i'd be mad at the kid because i can't concieve the ideal of listening to a band without trying to understand their message. thats why i stopped listening to pop music. and i'm the only democrat in my class too. my friends are the undecided ones and everybody else is a ****ing republican. its funny that their so anti-communist yet their system is practically the same way. and my teacher ****ing hates my guts cause i annoy him to death with questions. and yeah, if you liked RPM, i think you'll really dig STW. its more of a return to the punk/hardcore sound, just with better sound production. i'm just somewhat annoyed cause i can't find a punk band signed to a major label that is still a punk band.
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Last edited by tjtech12; 05-18-2007 at 06:59 PM. Reason: wanted to say something else.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:56 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Reading this topic made me feel like I had to comment, its just so stupid.

Hierarchyis inherint in capitalism. There will always be haves and have nots in capitalism. Therefore it is impossible to live freely with capitalism. Capitalism provides incentive for companies to rape the planet and use sweatshop labor overseas. Capitalism creates a society in which ones merits are determined by the amount of capital they can acumulate, rather than what they do with that capital. No capitalism wont just "play nice". It hasnt for generations, there will be no change now.

FOr those of you that believe that capitalism isn't an evil institution it's easy to have that opinion sitting in front of your computer in the comfort of your home. Work in a maquladora in Mexico, a sweatshop in China, or go to the Amazon and watch rampant deforestation, or the displacement of native peoples in Chiapas, or the destruction of squats such as Ungdomshuset, or the decimation of native peoples here in America. All of the sudden capitalism doesnt seem so friendly. It's easy for us to sit back in our post industrial world and give praise for capitalism.

I also thinks its funny that you argue that bands are anti-capitalist because its an accepted stance. Since when? Are the people in this thread accepting it? Does society in general accept it? No, being anti capitalist is not a welcome concept in our society(unless your some libertarian). Maybe bands are anti-capitalist because capitalism is at its core a disgusting institution and most the time even supposed "punks" or "rebels" are to ignorant or apathetic to see that.

As for the argument that "punk labels are capitalist" COmpare the cost of any cd from a DIY punk distro to the costs of those at Best buy or FYE. There is a bif difference between paying $8 and $18, Yes punk labels charge money, unfortunetly that is the reality of our situation. If a label wishes to stay alfoat and the people runing it want to live then they are obligated to charge money for music. Just as I am oblgated to work 40 hours at a job I ****ing hate. Our society says that basic human nessecities such as shelter and food must be purchased (hence a very realiistic interpretation of "buy or die") which requires myself and record labels to operate inside the capitalist system when nessecary.

Once again at can't help but laught when people talk about how it's easy to be anti-capitalist without realizing the ignorance of their statement and the fact that anti-capitalists are not exactly welcomed in our society. Look at history, during the periods of rapid industrialization in America there was a huge anarchist/socialist movement in america. As a post industrial economy emerged and most hard labor was sent overseas the anarchist/socialist movement has shrank drastically.(Also thanks to the red scare(s) and subsequent purging of radical groups)

As for the argument that all institutions are flawed I think the big poing that you miss is that there is NO ultimate goal in capitalism other than to aquire capital for ones self. Where as socialism has an ultimate goal of a free and equal society with a system of production that allows for the needs and desires of a society without surplus labor. Or anarchism has an ultimate goal of a free and equal society based on cooperation. It is easy to write off socialism an anarchism as fringe movement with no momentum, but once again look at history. In 1968 students occupied Paris and the entire country of Frnce was on the brink of socialist revolution before they were betrayed by pro-capitalist elements within the socialist party. Its getting harder to harvest any discontent from "punks" as they would incresingly rather listen to what they are told by teachers and authorities, and surf the internet for free punk albums on soulseek, or go to the mall. But the possibility for a different world is out there right under your noses.

Most people probobly dont know whats going on in there own town as far as corporations raping the world (my town alone has arms manufacutrers and poluters based here, and its not a big town)

Anyway if your still sitting there scratching your head at "why be so anti-capitalism, its not that bad" go to your library and read up. Go read Keynes and then read some Marx or Bakunin and see who you agree with more. Read a biography of Reagan then read one about Trotsky and see who you like more. Or for a real quick simple read go fet "The proporus few and the restless many" by Noam Chomsky.

To quote Sylvia Pankhurst “I am going to fight capitalism even if it kills me. It is wrong that people like you should be comfortable and well fed while all around you people are starving.”

Or to further elaborate lets turn to Eugene V Debs
"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then and I say now while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prision, I am not free."

Although I dont for a moment suspect that anyone here will become a socialist or an anarchist, and most peole here will read this and disregard it as they listen to their Ipod and buy their hamburgers I think it's important that you realize that there is so much going on out there that you and I dont even realize and to be complacent is to give your consent to all of the destruction. Hate to quote up the place but "The most heroic word in all languages is revolution."
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:02 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I wonder if anyone will actually read that...
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
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capitalism pwnz
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Old 05-31-2007, 12:49 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by All_Nite_Dinah View Post
Reading this topic made me feel like I had to comment, its just so stupid.

Hierarchyis inherint in capitalism. There will always be haves and have nots in capitalism. Therefore it is impossible to live freely with capitalism. Capitalism provides incentive for companies to rape the planet and use sweatshop labor overseas. Capitalism creates a society in which ones merits are determined by the amount of capital they can acumulate, rather than what they do with that capital. No capitalism wont just "play nice". It hasnt for generations, there will be no change now.

FOr those of you that believe that capitalism isn't an evil institution it's easy to have that opinion sitting in front of your computer in the comfort of your home. Work in a maquladora in Mexico, a sweatshop in China, or go to the Amazon and watch rampant deforestation, or the displacement of native peoples in Chiapas, or the destruction of squats such as Ungdomshuset, or the decimation of native peoples here in America. All of the sudden capitalism doesnt seem so friendly. It's easy for us to sit back in our post industrial world and give praise for capitalism.

I also thinks its funny that you argue that bands are anti-capitalist because its an accepted stance. Since when? Are the people in this thread accepting it? Does society in general accept it? No, being anti capitalist is not a welcome concept in our society(unless your some libertarian). Maybe bands are anti-capitalist because capitalism is at its core a disgusting institution and most the time even supposed "punks" or "rebels" are to ignorant or apathetic to see that.

As for the argument that "punk labels are capitalist" COmpare the cost of any cd from a DIY punk distro to the costs of those at Best buy or FYE. There is a bif difference between paying $8 and $18, Yes punk labels charge money, unfortunetly that is the reality of our situation. If a label wishes to stay alfoat and the people runing it want to live then they are obligated to charge money for music. Just as I am oblgated to work 40 hours at a job I ****ing hate. Our society says that basic human nessecities such as shelter and food must be purchased (hence a very realiistic interpretation of "buy or die") which requires myself and record labels to operate inside the capitalist system when nessecary.

Once again at can't help but laught when people talk about how it's easy to be anti-capitalist without realizing the ignorance of their statement and the fact that anti-capitalists are not exactly welcomed in our society. Look at history, during the periods of rapid industrialization in America there was a huge anarchist/socialist movement in america. As a post industrial economy emerged and most hard labor was sent overseas the anarchist/socialist movement has shrank drastically.(Also thanks to the red scare(s) and subsequent purging of radical groups)

As for the argument that all institutions are flawed I think the big poing that you miss is that there is NO ultimate goal in capitalism other than to aquire capital for ones self. Where as socialism has an ultimate goal of a free and equal society with a system of production that allows for the needs and desires of a society without surplus labor. Or anarchism has an ultimate goal of a free and equal society based on cooperation. It is easy to write off socialism an anarchism as fringe movement with no momentum, but once again look at history. In 1968 students occupied Paris and the entire country of Frnce was on the brink of socialist revolution before they were betrayed by pro-capitalist elements within the socialist party. Its getting harder to harvest any discontent from "punks" as they would incresingly rather listen to what they are told by teachers and authorities, and surf the internet for free punk albums on soulseek, or go to the mall. But the possibility for a different world is out there right under your noses.

Most people probobly dont know whats going on in there own town as far as corporations raping the world (my town alone has arms manufacutrers and poluters based here, and its not a big town)

Anyway if your still sitting there scratching your head at "why be so anti-capitalism, its not that bad" go to your library and read up. Go read Keynes and then read some Marx or Bakunin and see who you agree with more. Read a biography of Reagan then read one about Trotsky and see who you like more. Or for a real quick simple read go fet "The proporus few and the restless many" by Noam Chomsky.

To quote Sylvia Pankhurst “I am going to fight capitalism even if it kills me. It is wrong that people like you should be comfortable and well fed while all around you people are starving.”

Or to further elaborate lets turn to Eugene V Debs
"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then and I say now while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prision, I am not free."

Although I dont for a moment suspect that anyone here will become a socialist or an anarchist, and most peole here will read this and disregard it as they listen to their Ipod and buy their hamburgers I think it's important that you realize that there is so much going on out there that you and I dont even realize and to be complacent is to give your consent to all of the destruction. Hate to quote up the place but "The most heroic word in all languages is revolution."
I don't know why you keep mentioning anarchism and socialism in the same breath, in anarchy there would be no government intervention therefore the economic system would be one of extreme capitalism... all of the means of production would be "owned" by individuals. In socialism, the government controls the means of production so as to help out the working class...

Personally I tend to shy away from both socialism and communism because I'm generally not in favor of giving more control to the government, I'd prefer that the people have it. Unfortunately, that just leads to the formation of corporations which begin to resemble government so the alternative isn't really much better. All economic systems seem to lead to someone getting screwed, that's just how it works. Someone has to lose a buck for you to make a buck.
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Old 05-31-2007, 02:30 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I don't know why you keep mentioning anarchism and socialism in the same breath, in anarchy there would be no government intervention therefore the economic system would be one of extreme capitalism... all of the means of production would be "owned" by individuals. In socialism, the government controls the means of production so as to help out the working class...

Personally I tend to shy away from both socialism and communism because I'm generally not in favor of giving more control to the government, I'd prefer that the people have it. Unfortunately, that just leads to the formation of corporations which begin to resemble government so the alternative isn't really much better. All economic systems seem to lead to someone getting screwed, that's just how it works. Someone has to lose a buck for you to make a buck.
I mention anarchim and socialism in the same breath because they are both radical anti-capitalit ideas. The argument that anarchism would result in extreme capitalims has no base. In an anarchistc society people would get theproducts they desire through cooperation and free assosiation. Town a has lots of turnips ton b has lot of hats, town a trades turnips for hats. Granted under anarchism one would be allowed to try to institute some sort of capitalist endevour, but no person would be obligated to participate. I could open a shoe factory and pay my employees and dictate their hours if the place i lived allowed it, but its up to the people to do what they want. There would also hypothetically be no need for capitalist enterprise because people would no longer feel the need to buy useless junk to feel good about themselves as a status symbol. A society of equals. This is why anarchy promises nothing, but gives everything. No government, no economy, no currency, no hieracrchy.

Your definition of socialism is completly backwards. In a socialist economy the PEOPLE own the means of production. GOvernment officials are directly eected with the possibility of instant recalls. The government officials would hypothetically be payed no more than the wrking individual thus insuring that they have similar intrests. The point of socialism isn't just to neifit the working class, but to create a classless society in which the state would "wither away". Socialism and communism are largely synonomous. Communism was coined by marx as his interpretation of socialist policies aplieing real world statistics to utopian socialist ideals. It sounds like your confusing socialism/communism with Stalinism, which is NOT communism/socialism. Thats just another lie your told in high school thats left over from the red scare. Socialism is not about giving more power to the government, its about giving all power to the people.

It sounds like you are trying to argue some sort of libertarian/objectivist platform that the government shouldnt have any control over the economy, and laissez faire capitalism is the best bet. This philosophy is pretty easy to rebut as capitalism has pven time and time again that when left unwatched it acts on its worst behavior, hence the formation of anti-trust laws, and the burgening socialist movements in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Contrary to your very Malthusian(1) philosophy that any economic system end in peple getting screwed we live in a world today where it is entirley possible that everyone could live together as equals, however as has been stated under capitalism there is no concept of equality. Thus yes as long as rampant capitalism remains there will be inequality, but if there is no buck to lose then ther is no buck to make.
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:02 PM   #28 (permalink)
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The argument that anarchism would result in extreme capitalims has no base. In an anarchistc society people would get theproducts they desire through cooperation and free assosiation. Town a has lots of turnips ton b has lot of hats, town a trades turnips for hats. Granted under anarchism one would be allowed to try to institute some sort of capitalist endevour, but no person would be obligated to participate. I could open a shoe factory and pay my employees and dictate their hours if the place i lived allowed it, but its up to the people to do what they want. There would also hypothetically be no need for capitalist enterprise because people would no longer feel the need to buy useless junk to feel good about themselves as a status symbol. A society of equals. This is why anarchy promises nothing, but gives everything. No government, no economy, no currency, no hieracrchy.
This doesn't really make much sense to me. What you're talking about here is not just a different political/economic system, but a complete shift in the public mindset. There is a gap between "no government" and "no hierarchy" whatsoever. If you just stick to "no government," and people are allowed to freely trade goods (free trade... uh oh) those who can get their hands on the stuff people need most (be it jewels, oil, wheat whatever) will be free to charge whatever they want for it... even if we get rid of money as well they can demand absurd exchanges for their goods. Nobody would be forced to trade to get his goods, but if they NEED them they will. If people were capable of holding hands and cooperating to get everything they needed, they would do so under capitalism. The idea that removing all government control would somehow lead to the abolition of corporations and a turnaround of the laws of supply and demand is absurd to me.

In response to the stuff about socialism, the ultimate goal of socialism may be to put all the means of production in the hands of the people, but the policies of most socialist parties in Europe are to nationalize industry and provide better welfare, which is a sort of indirect "power to the people" thing because it helps out the lower classes and eases some of the harshness of capitalism, but it's still a stones-throw from communism. I agree that there is a difference between this and the transitional socialism which Marx envisioned.
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Old 05-31-2007, 05:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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well, i get the idea that most of you on here are older than i am (14) so its not like i know that much of what i'm talking about. but i thought that punk was about individualism and democracy, so i wondered why some bands had socialist ideals. and i understand hating capitalism for its backstabbing ways. but i don't think a socialist system would really help much. maybe the real problem (as some people mentioned before) is in the people. if people learned not to value money and power as much as friendship and freedom, maybe then a capitalist system would work. but about the only political theory books i've read are "Animal farm" and "1984" by Orwell. peace.
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Old 05-31-2007, 07:30 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Very interesting thread... Probably 90% of the bands against "THE SYSTEM" are not experts in politics, sociology, history, and economics (there are a few that are) but still, those people choose not to be conformist, they realize we live by no means in a perfect world, they see what's wrong in the world, and they empathize with the "loosers side".

People nowadays don't realize what crude capitalism REALLY means, you only have to go a hundred years back, blatant exploitation by those who acquired their capital through violence and extortion... people literally dying an their work....

The fact most people in developed countries don't see is that this is happening right now in half of the world... the mighty and wealthy exploiting the rest for and only for their own benefit (and I don't mean Bill Gates, I mean the Warlords in Liberia or Ruanda, the narcos in Colombia).

In developed countries the pressure made by organized socialism has HUGELY "humanized" capitalism, don't believe it would have happened anyway we lived thousands of years with oppression being the rule, again, in developed countries we live in an exceptional age!!! but at what cost, maybe extreme poverty has mostly been eradicated but in part thanks to the exploitation of less developed countries (see where pretroleum comes from and the degree of wellbeing of the common people in those countries, who get the benefits, the ruling nobles/capitalists).

Anarchism, as deeply flawed at a "macro" level as it is, is the incarnation of the values of the Enlightenment (humanism, personal freedom, deeply rooted democracy)... those that sell anarchism simply as destruction and being against everything are not true anarchists to me.


English is not my first language, I wish I made at least some sense.


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