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Old 06-01-2007, 12:40 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by All_Nite_Dinah View Post
there is NO ultimate goal in capitalism other than to aquire capital for ones self.
All Nite Dinah, I agree with most everything you said, even though if we were to meet you'd most certainly view me as a hypocrite.

What I quoted by you, that thought has crossed my mind for years and years on end, and although I'd like to be more knowledgeable in political and economic theory (maybe to be able to quote, maybe to name a squat that occurred, I'm not sure), it pains me just sitting around.

Like you said, change is present "under our noses", that statement alone make me frustrated, because I feel so damn trapped when I'm too scared to organize something, protest something I see as wrong, or when I'm just too lazy to conceive ways to act on my disapproval of some majority policy at all.

It's easy to live in a first world country and have "leftist" theories, all the while sitting in an air-conditioned house, eating food from the supermarket, reading about impoverished Brazilian natives or starving, diseased Africans, but not taking a stand.

Not knowing how to start or being scared makes me angry, and I've done only extremely minor volunteerism, which doesn't come close to the amount of work that could be done for less fortunate individuals or areas being demolished by the ignorant mechanized strive for capital made by (as you said) American business people living in a post industrialized society.

I'm positive that if I knew you I would look up to you like some sort of hero (because you've always seemed to know what you're talking about), but I don't, and I guess it's just extremely refreshing to read something like that, I only wish I'd read or be a witness to conceptions like that more often.

By the way, I'm glad you posted, this is your first post in a year or something.
Do it more often!
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:47 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Trauma, often I felt like you, I don't want to sound patronizing because for what I've read you seem a very intelligent person... but I would say don't worry about what you can't do right now, do whatever it's in your hand, opportunities to "do something" always arise and life is very long... and don't feel ashamed for what you have, just value it more deeply and share whenever you can.

Not being a fascist jerk is enough to me, unfortunately the world is still full of fools. I believe small changes end up adding to revolutionary changes.

And most important, enjoy whatever you do without fear (some jokingly define a fascist as a scared bourgois).

Sorry for the telegram style post

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Old 06-01-2007, 11:00 AM   #33 (permalink)
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This doesn't really make much sense to me. What you're talking about here is not just a different political/economic system, but a complete shift in the public mindset. There is a gap between "no government" and "no hierarchy" whatsoever. If you just stick to "no government," and people are allowed to freely trade goods (free trade... uh oh) those who can get their hands on the stuff people need most (be it jewels, oil, wheat whatever) will be free to charge whatever they want for it... even if we get rid of money as well they can demand absurd exchanges for their goods. Nobody would be forced to trade to get his goods, but if they NEED them they will. If people were capable of holding hands and cooperating to get everything they needed, they would do so under capitalism. The idea that removing all government control would somehow lead to the abolition of corporations and a turnaround of the laws of supply and demand is absurd to me.

In response to the stuff about socialism, the ultimate goal of socialism may be to put all the means of production in the hands of the people, but the policies of most socialist parties in Europe are to nationalize industry and provide better welfare, which is a sort of indirect "power to the people" thing because it helps out the lower classes and eases some of the harshness of capitalism, but it's still a stones-throw from communism. I agree that there is a difference between this and the transitional socialism which Marx envisioned.

Yes, I am talking about a complete change in mindset. I fully understand that at first it is difficult to grasp the concept that no one has to die in order for us to live, and that instead of having a society of competiition and death and destruction we could build a society that caters to the needs of everyone. That is the hardest part of talking revolutionary politics. Since birth people have the idea that capitalism is the only way to live, and that it is the best way to live. You are told that there will always be leaders and followers, and fed this idea of social darwanism. Fed the lies about communism, and before communism emerged as a threat fed lies about anarchism. Once you understand that there is MORE than capitalism you can begin to understand. In a anarchist society there would be no need to "charge whatever you want" because 1.There would be no reason to have more than someone else. 2. If one member of a collective group of a people is exploiting the other members they would have the ability to deal with it. 3. Once one understands that capitalism is fuled by surplus (be it labor or goods) and excess there is no need for things like $500 sneakers or $1 mil. cars. You have to try to understand that anarchism is a SOCIAL movement first, an economic idea second. If you can not liberate your mind from the confines of capitalist thought, you wil never be able to live as neither master nor slave. There is no way I could even hope to try to explain all parts of anarchist theory or answer all your questions, because I am far from a scholar on it. I dont know all the answers, but one thing I do know is that it is bickering over anarchism and communism that allows capitalism to thrive.

While we kick our feet and debate on the merits of socialism people are dying for no reason. This is not an exageration, only the stark reality of what our decadent culture has brought. You can argue that capitalism can be brought to a more "humane" form, but there will always be a need for "lower costs of production" and higher income, therfore someone will always be exploited. This is inherint in capitalism and can not be disputed. But once one frees ther mind of the lies that you are told about the benifits of competition and looks at the facts that are right there in front of there face, the homelessness, the poverty, the crime committed for material(capital) gain, the war, it becomes rather obvious that something must change. Keep in mind that capitalism as we know(post industrial) it today has only been around in the US for around 50 years, and already we are floating on debt bankrupting socil security(the supposed last stronghold for the poor) and engaged in endless wars. Go ahead and stand by capitalism or libertarian policies, but keep in mind that this system is weak and it's collapse is inevitable.

Before someone pulls out the example of the supposed prodigal son of capitalism, India. I would like to nip that in the bud. Look at the murder and suicide rates of India as coorelating with the GDP in of India. Or look at the amount of small farmers put out of work, giving up a traditional lifestyle carried out for generations to work in call centers for american companies. There was and excellent speaker on this topic in my town, unfortunetly I can't remember his name.

Indirect power to the people is better than no power to the people. Also keep in mind that most "socialist" countries in Europe are just social democracies. If you want to get into theory than according to Marx a true socialist revolution must occur around the world, it is impossible for one country to maintain a true socialist government alone.(Read the last line of the Communist manifesto) Hence the ability for countries to take the full leap into socialism. However something is better than nothing. Also ironicly the socialist candidate for president of france lost to Sarkozy who is a Gaulist. Taking control of the country at a time strikeingly similar to the social conditins of 1968.

This is baisically the point when you and I either agree to disagree, or you look at things in a different frame of mind. I repeat that the last thing I expect anyone reading this to do is become a devoted anarchist/socialist, as it is much easyier to just go wih the flow, than to voice opposition. Voiceing opposition can result in being beaten, arrested, and ortasized from your community. If you are genuinly intrested in anarchism or socialism I would recomend going to www. infoshop .org for alot of free resources. A much easier to read version of the stuff can be found at www. crimethinc .com which is a bsic primer to anarchist though without breaking down into in depth analysis. I also highly recomend touching bases with The Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engles and What is to be done by Lenin. Civil disobedience by thoreau, The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin, and Anarcho Syndicalism by Rudolpf Rocker for anarchist(Krpotkin and rocker anre anarcho syndicalists) thought.

If your still bent on the idea of competition being good read mutual aid by kropotkin. It was written in the hey day of social darwanist thought.

If you feel like you are pissed off and want to do something about it the best thing you can do is get educated. Learn as much as you can so that when someone comes spouting lies you can rebut them. That and quit living your life for some phony ideal of a house and a little house wife and two cars and a dog named spot. That has never been reality. Capitalism only truely worked for about 20 years following WWII, and even then people watched Leave it to Beaver and wondered why their lives wern't like that. Live your life for you not some silly capitalist. Buy less, work less, spend more time doing things you want, develop a way to make money without working, quit the system, and continue to agitate by going to protests and doing anything you can. There is alot that we can do once we start living or lives for ourselves. You can call me an idealist, but I'll call you jaded and boring.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:02 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by josemaki View Post
Trauma, often I felt like you, I don't want to sound patronizing because for what I've read you seem a very intelligent person... but I would say don't worry about what you can't do right now, do whatever it's in your hand, opportunities to "do something" always arise and life is very long... and don't feel ashamed for what you have, just value it more deeply and share whenever you can.

Not being a fascist jerk is enough to me, unfortunately the world is still full of fools. I believe small changes end up adding to revolutionary changes.

And most important, enjoy whatever you do without fear (some jokingly define a fascist as a scared bourgois).

Sorry for the telegram style post

Well said.
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Old 06-01-2007, 12:16 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I think the problem is that I'm just too cynical and jaded for anarchy.. I think competition is so deeply ingrained in the human mindset that our race would be more likely to destroy itself than to transcend self-interest and help each other out. In fact, I believe that almost everything each one of us does is out of self-interest. I also think that people are too apathetic and scared of change to start a true revolution. I am personally very apathetic... I would be just as content using the system to my advantage as I would be to see it replaced by what you describe.

So yeah, the main issue is a difference in ideology. But people have been competing and killing each other and ignoring needless suffering for millennia, and I really don't see that changing anytime soon.
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Old 06-03-2007, 05:39 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by All_Nite_Dinah View Post
Anarcho Syndicalism by Rudolpf Rocker for anarchist(Krpotkin and rocker anre anarcho syndicalists) thought.

If you feel like you are pissed off and want to do something about it the best thing you can do is get educated. Learn as much as you can so that when someone comes spouting lies you can rebut them. That and quit living your life for some phony ideal of a house and a little house wife and two cars and a dog named spot. That has never been reality. Capitalism only truely worked for about 20 years following WWII, and even then people watched Leave it to Beaver and wondered why their lives wern't like that. Live your life for you not some silly capitalist. Buy less, work less, spend more time doing things you want, develop a way to make money without working, quit the system, and continue to agitate by going to protests and doing anything you can. There is alot that we can do once we start living or lives for ourselves. You can call me an idealist, but I'll call you jaded and boring.
Word.


Quote:
Originally Posted by josemaki View Post
Trauma, often I felt like you, I don't want to sound patronizing because for what I've read you seem a very intelligent person... but I would say don't worry about what you can't do right now, do whatever it's in your hand, opportunities to "do something" always arise and life is very long... and don't feel ashamed for what you have, just value it more deeply and share whenever you can.

Not being a fascist jerk is enough to me, unfortunately the world is still full of fools. I believe small changes end up adding to revolutionary changes.

And most important, enjoy whatever you do without fear (some jokingly define a fascist as a scared bourgois).

Sorry for the telegram style post
You don't sound condescending.
It's true I worry sometimes about what I can't do, but even more so I frustrate myself by avoiding oppurtunities that present themselves to me on a daily basis.
Where you might have misinterpreted my argument is telling me to not be ashamed, because I am in no way ashamed of where I'm at right now in life.
Every consecutive decision you make in life adds up to the end (I'm not saying that life is necessarily just a summation) and you're given a base to start at in the beginning of the math problem.
Just because I wasn't born a bedouin in the deserts of Africa as opposed to a middle-class white kid in Canada doesn't mean I'm ashamed of what I have.
It just means I would like to give more to the less fortunate individuals in the world.
And it frustrates me on such a cosmic scale I think, just because there are so many billions of people who are less fortunate than me, and I have every oppurtunity to give to them things I have to give.
You're theory about minor changes in lifestyle leading to revolution through majority is completely true.
To the ending sentences of your post; of course I'm going to enjoy whatever I do without fear, life only comes around one time (and your remark about fascists made me laugh).
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Old 06-03-2007, 07:06 PM   #37 (permalink)
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If only people talked this much about punk on this forum.
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:59 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Reading this topic made me feel like I had to comment, its just so stupid.

Hierarchyis inherint in capitalism. There will always be haves and have nots in capitalism. Therefore it is impossible to live freely with capitalism. Capitalism provides incentive for companies to rape the planet and use sweatshop labor overseas. Capitalism creates a society in which ones merits are determined by the amount of capital they can acumulate, rather than what they do with that capital. No capitalism wont just "play nice". It hasnt for generations, there will be no change now.

FOr those of you that believe that capitalism isn't an evil institution it's easy to have that opinion sitting in front of your computer in the comfort of your home. Work in a maquladora in Mexico, a sweatshop in China, or go to the Amazon and watch rampant deforestation, or the displacement of native peoples in Chiapas, or the destruction of squats such as Ungdomshuset, or the decimation of native peoples here in America. All of the sudden capitalism doesnt seem so friendly. It's easy for us to sit back in our post industrial world and give praise for capitalism.
I'm sorry but I find this to be horribly bias, moderately uninformed and highly condescending.

First of all, Capitalism is the only way one could possible achieve freedom. I wonder under what other type of economic system you think people could possible find a higher degree of freedom? Until thats answered, Ill tell you why Capitalism is unmatched...

First of all, the entire economic system is governed by supply and demand. Its hard to imagine that people do not get what they want in a system they gives to people what they want, and has no outlet for things they do not. I do agree that a completely free market leads to potential monopolies but with minor restrictions and federal regulation, the issue of monopolies has been solved.

More over, and Friedman suggests over and over again, All forms of government imposed regulation not only fails, but achieves results that require more work and only serve to keep from people that which they seek. Things they'd have achieved already in a capitalist system.

And while you never said there should be government regulated policies on how trade occurs, you renouncing of capitalism leaves you with two options. Heavy Regulatory centralized government, or anarchy. Given this is both an intelligent discussion that also is taking place in the punk forums, I have no idea which one you'd option for.

You also wrote about how we're not able to comment sitting in our post-industrial westernized homes. If that were the case, why are you getting to have an opinion? Have you been to the third world? I know I haven't but I've read countless texts and reports/articles on development and the plight that we're looking to over come. The truth is, Capitalism works there.

Every time our "western" eyes see a 'sweat shop" we run screaming to the hills (capitol hill). The truth is, as we've seen with human rights, the 3rd world does not view work the same way our lazy western asses do. Nicholas Kristof's articles in the New York Times show over and again that those in the sweatshops want the 6 day a week, 15 hour a day job. He writes that they are horrified that Americans boycott the sweatshops because this is the only source of income.

As for the wages, thats a completely different context. One woman remarked, "$5 a day allows me to buy mosquito nets so my children don't die of malaria." I find it rather obnoxious that you would be so arrogant and elitist toward people when its evident you don't really know much about the topic at hand. You come off as every other trust fund deuche bag who stands on the corner and preaches about "smashing the capitalist state" and "the district of corruptia."

I'm more than willing to have this out with people, and if you "didn't understand something". By all means, allow me to clarify because Capitalism gets a bum rap, but its nothing more than uninformed, half-assed bull****.

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Old 06-04-2007, 02:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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You might want to read the longer posts... All_Nite_Dinah's case wasn't just against capitalism as an economic system, but all the assumptions and the "western" mindset that come with it.

Also, I'm more or less on your side, but about the whole "sweatshop" issue, the issue isn't really that these people don't want to be working that much (hypothetically nobody is forcing them to work,) but the simple fact that they are being exploited... that they could be paid a lot more for the work that they do but they are not because corporations don't need to pay them more. Just because they're oblivious to the fact that they're being exploited, and that their meager wages are enough to cover their basic survival needs, doesn't mean that it's necessarily justified.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:21 PM   #40 (permalink)
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not really, im going to work right now (to get exploited) and would love to make this a better response but understand that things are scaled to pay. If they couldn't afford to live with that job, they wouldn't. If they got paid what we would, they'd be millionaires and the only real solution to this "problem" is to build more sweatshops to the supply and demand is more focused on the demand side. If companies needed workers more than workers needed job (because for example they already had a job) the conditions would go up to entice the works to the job site.

See capitalism would save the third world.
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