Did Malcolm McLaren Invent Punk? (rap, reggae, rock, great songs)

sleepy jack · 02-09-2008, 03:18 PM

Christ there's no way I'm sorting through that mess to figure out which is my post and which is his.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 03:32 PM

One on the fact that The US punks made claims after the event with the Pistols (like Urban hatemonger said)
and two because the Clash said (strummer) on The Story of the Clash that he was directly inspired by seeing the pistols.
3 Mclaren manged what he is calling the first punk band
4 proto punk is a crap phrase used to make out something was the inspiration or guiding force or start but the psitols had never heard of them as they were only kids of 16 and when they did come over to latch on to the New Punk scene they were beaten up and told to F off.
I say two nill as I don't want it to look like a rout too early on and I have to give them a chance as I know many pro americans feels very touchy about the fact that the UK invented what is worldwide known as punk music and punk politics and punk culture not just drug culture like Richard Hell et al.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill

Christ there's no way I'm sorting through that mess to figure out which is my post and which is his.

I'll give you a tip. Try to figure out what you said and then extrapulate from that what I must have said. Sorry but I am new and don't fully get the formatting but that excuse looks like you have given up I am sure that others will concur. So I am right and it only took one day to prove and accept that Mclaren invented punk music.
Job done!
I am now going to listen to waterfall by the Stone Roses.

sleepy jack · 02-09-2008, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill

Yes I am aware of that but I assumed you would be too if you are into punk as they formed after the Manchester gig as Joy division and later New Order but I am talking about the attitude behind them all and Morrissey was there too but whether he found Marr of Marr found him is geek talk as he was inspired to make music and later formed the Smith's but cited them as inspiration (amoung others.)

He was inspired to make music well before seeing the Pistols, he was a huge New York Dolls fan (he wrote a book on them) I think the Nosebleeds could be accredited to the pistols but there were four people in the Smiths, only Morrissey can really be used for this and I don't think the Sex Pistols was a large music influence to him.

Quote:

Yeah and have you seen pictures of them? They were trottling out crap and Strummer said he was past all that overblown crap and wanted something new and when he saw the pistols he was inspired. Listen to The album Story of the Clash and he says it on the Album between tracks then come back and take back your words okay. Of course people were in bands and into music. Everyone is into some kind of music. But the explosion of creativity and attitude that captured the planet was due to the Pistols like they all say Elvis invented rock n roll but chuck berry and others were around before him. But he made everyone young on the planet get into it.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Because noone would have heard of it except anoracks had it not been for the pistols and there would not today be a whole section of music about it.

See I think thats a load of crap, punk would've happened with or without the Sex Pistols there were already bands playing it.

Quote:

He didn't see what he was doing at all. He thought he was a prick. He just thought what a great idea it would be to get some kids and make them stars so perhaps he did form the first boy band. He created them (without realising their actual talent) as a marketing ploy and gimmick a glorious mess.

He was Richard Hell walking around with safety pins and leather jackets and what he was doing and brought it over. Do some research, its true.

Quote:

I will give the Ramones the title maybe. Perhaps it could be the Ramones. This is what debate is about my friend. I still think the pistols created the era and made it historic along with the Clash and others. I am talking about worldwide as a movement of ideals and politics and DIY music where kids felt inspired and formed bands.

I don't think the Sex Pistols could be considered responsible to the DIY culture at all, seeing as bands that were big into like Crass hated the Clash and the Sex Pistols and so on.

Quote:

It may have been thriving in one club for about 200 people but the pistols toured the mid west and their album got all america noticing and not just a club with a few hundred locals.

The point I was trying to make was punk was already happening in New York, the Sex Pistols popularized it and made it explode but invented it? No.

Quote:

Politics is not just about intellgence as George W will testify. it is about an ideal or a vision or a revolution forcing change. Would the Ramones have changed anything really? But bloody great band.

Yeah but the Ramones weren't a political band.

Quote:

No it wasn't and it certainly would not have lasted and gained it's own niche if you credit the dolls and maclaren was their manager then what are you saying? WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? Think my friend think.

Punk is an old term and was first applied to music in the 1970s. Richard Hell had stuck a safety pin in his face before Sid Vicious had even heard of punk.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 04:22 PM

Faired income you make some good points.
Are we saying Richard Hell was behind punk then? I mean, did you know David Bowie influnced young punks so much? With his style and look? Apparently sid vicious wanted to be him as a youngster!!
So that is the problem about where do you say "this was the point that it became huge and was made" Nothing in the universe is new but what made it become newsworthy and got ganny's talking about it and schoolkids and office workers and even the Royal Family? This massive imprint on culture is what i think led to punk been classified as a movement and genre. I think without that it would not have. What it would be remered as noone knows as we can't live parallel universes...yet!
Do you see my point?
Like Britpop in the UK was said to have began with blur and some say it began with a band called suede but the fact is that if it wasn't for Oasis it would not be looked back on as brit pop at all as noone would have latched on like each new band who is going to be massive then isn't and we all forget them. The media makes loads of new bands but we don't buy it and it is forgotton. Oasis had grannys talking about them and kids and all races and apparently 1 out of every 3 brits applied to see them perform in 96 like mania and they were on news programs and current affairs and everywhere. This is draw in line with british punk only that was worldwide. See, some bands were touted as britpop but without oasis we'd all have dropped that name back in 94. Same with the pistols and the huge impact they had to define a new genre of the music industry. I have no fondness for mclaren anymore then anyone else but I have heard over the years so many americans claim they invented punk or, better phrased, they began the movement known as punk but it is insulting to me as a brit as apart from the Ramones there was no real punk ethos in any of these bands any more then they were like bowie or alice cooper.
That's my thinking anyway. I claim punk for the UK. The US definately gave us grunge though.....because of our punk!!!

jackhammer · 02-09-2008, 05:07 PM

Faired income? surely you mean fair dinkum? or was this a subtle play on words? Sorry i know i'm off topic but It's fun.

~~Farfisa~~ · 02-09-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADELE

He started with the New York Dolls and then made the Sex Pistols. So I guess he made Punk. He claims he did and it was all his own idea when the Dolls wanted to be the Stones and he showed them how then invented the Pistols which led to the Clash and every other UK punk outfit.

hes an ego-maniac

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 07:18 PM

Got to be in this business dear boy!

jackhammer · 02-09-2008, 07:29 PM

So you admire McClaren?

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 07:44 PM

Admiration is not really the thing. I have read many articles over the years and actually tonight on bbc 5 live radio they were discussing who started the punk movement with Americans arguing for their bands but the Brits steadfast in our knowledge we were behind the revolution.
How come noone mentioned MC5??
I was hoping someone would as that may have destroyed my arguement somewhat but seen as noone has I have to myself!
Well I say destroyed but I mean, somewhat disected a wee bit. But seriously many music journo's argue this point as it is about a huge cultral agenda. I respect Johnny Rotten as much as Malcolm as he and the band wrote the songs. But I am talking about the whole punk movement and who was inspired like Green Day and even guns ' roses. Bands like the Damned (who are supposed to have released the first ever official punk album) all hailed from the UK.
Lets get this debate going about what punk did for kids and who really inspired us today and our subsequent music culture. Even Rap music owes alot to the punk ethos of DIY and not needing to be a guitar master to write great songs and influence people. A hundred years from now if anyone looks up punk they will be shown the pistols as the major force behind the movement. I want people to challenge me about this as all the US supporters say is a few band names but what did these bands do for anyone? What did they do for kids? What did they do to change the music business? I mean, they are a bit like saying "I like REM" but they haven't ever changed the world for any kids have they? Do you get what I am getting at people?

02-09-2008, 05:07 PM	#36 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	Faired income? surely you mean fair dinkum? or was this a subtle play on words? Sorry i know i'm off topic but It's fun. __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

02-09-2008, 07:29 PM	#39 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	So you admire McClaren? __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

02-09-2008, 03:32 PM	#32 (permalink)
~~ADELE~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London Posts: 466	One on the fact that The US punks made claims after the event with the Pistols (like Urban hatemonger said) and two because the Clash said (strummer) on The Story of the Clash that he was directly inspired by seeing the pistols. 3 Mclaren manged what he is calling the first punk band 4 proto punk is a crap phrase used to make out something was the inspiration or guiding force or start but the psitols had never heard of them as they were only kids of 16 and when they did come over to latch on to the New Punk scene they were beaten up and told to F off. I say two nill as I don't want it to look like a rout too early on and I have to give them a chance as I know many pro americans feels very touchy about the fact that the UK invented what is worldwide known as punk music and punk politics and punk culture not just drug culture like Richard Hell et al.

02-09-2008, 04:22 PM	#35 (permalink)
~~ADELE~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London Posts: 466	Faired income you make some good points. Are we saying Richard Hell was behind punk then? I mean, did you know David Bowie influnced young punks so much? With his style and look? Apparently sid vicious wanted to be him as a youngster!! So that is the problem about where do you say "this was the point that it became huge and was made" Nothing in the universe is new but what made it become newsworthy and got ganny's talking about it and schoolkids and office workers and even the Royal Family? This massive imprint on culture is what i think led to punk been classified as a movement and genre. I think without that it would not have. What it would be remered as noone knows as we can't live parallel universes...yet! Do you see my point? Like Britpop in the UK was said to have began with blur and some say it began with a band called suede but the fact is that if it wasn't for Oasis it would not be looked back on as brit pop at all as noone would have latched on like each new band who is going to be massive then isn't and we all forget them. The media makes loads of new bands but we don't buy it and it is forgotton. Oasis had grannys talking about them and kids and all races and apparently 1 out of every 3 brits applied to see them perform in 96 like mania and they were on news programs and current affairs and everywhere. This is draw in line with british punk only that was worldwide. See, some bands were touted as britpop but without oasis we'd all have dropped that name back in 94. Same with the pistols and the huge impact they had to define a new genre of the music industry. I have no fondness for mclaren anymore then anyone else but I have heard over the years so many americans claim they invented punk or, better phrased, they began the movement known as punk but it is insulting to me as a brit as apart from the Ramones there was no real punk ethos in any of these bands any more then they were like bowie or alice cooper. That's my thinking anyway. I claim punk for the UK. The US definately gave us grunge though.....because of our punk!!!

02-09-2008, 07:18 PM	#38 (permalink)
~~ADELE~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London Posts: 466	Got to be in this business dear boy!

02-09-2008, 07:44 PM	#40 (permalink)
~~ADELE~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London Posts: 466	Admiration is not really the thing. I have read many articles over the years and actually tonight on bbc 5 live radio they were discussing who started the punk movement with Americans arguing for their bands but the Brits steadfast in our knowledge we were behind the revolution. How come noone mentioned MC5?? I was hoping someone would as that may have destroyed my arguement somewhat but seen as noone has I have to myself! Well I say destroyed but I mean, somewhat disected a wee bit. But seriously many music journo's argue this point as it is about a huge cultral agenda. I respect Johnny Rotten as much as Malcolm as he and the band wrote the songs. But I am talking about the whole punk movement and who was inspired like Green Day and even guns ' roses. Bands like the Damned (who are supposed to have released the first ever official punk album) all hailed from the UK. Lets get this debate going about what punk did for kids and who really inspired us today and our subsequent music culture. Even Rap music owes alot to the punk ethos of DIY and not needing to be a guitar master to write great songs and influence people. A hundred years from now if anyone looks up punk they will be shown the pistols as the major force behind the movement. I want people to challenge me about this as all the US supporters say is a few band names but what did these bands do for anyone? What did they do for kids? What did they do to change the music business? I mean, they are a bit like saying "I like REM" but they haven't ever changed the world for any kids have they? Do you get what I am getting at people?