Im not saying the President is rascist againt his own mother but you know he did say she was "a typical white person". If I said someone was typical black person I would be seen as the most hatefull human on the planet. But since hes a minority, he can say whatever he wants. And thats flat out wrong..

Me too, but maybe I am just crazy...

...."because of slavery they were born in a first world country"...as f---cking slaves, and being denied all the benefits of living in a first world country.You forget all the other little inconveniences they faced...making it illegal for slaves to learn to read or write, being denied the right to vote, being denied the right to own property in certain areas, being paid only a portion of a white man's wages for the same work;

Whites shouldn't feel collective guilt for slavery, but the majority of whites were given opportunities that blacks were denied, saying that affirmative action completely reverses all that is stupid.

Ignore the first three sentences and I just about agree with everything he says...

Whites don't own a monopoly on being cruel and oppressive. Historically, Indians and Blacks have been just as horrible to each other. Also, as hip bunny notes, slavery didn't start in North America. On the other hand, it did end here. Over 500,000 Americans died during the Civil War in order to abolish slavery.

You may want to rethink your viewpoint, since even without those sentences, it still reads like a white supremacist screed.

I mean, yeah, it's a bunch of facts that a white supremacist might put together, but that doesn't change the fact that they are, well, facts...

It's a bunch of assertions that a white supremacist might put together. I didn't see much in the way of actual facts in there.

That is a provocative statement. Obviously nobody has ever tried to rationalize that slavery was a benefit. However, it was just last week in Africa, a group of fanatic black Muslims slaughtered a village of black Christian with machetes. These black Muslims surrounded this straw hut Christian village, and hacked to death, mercilessly, women, children and men as they ran out of their huts. If I had a choice to live back in the Crusades, or modern society and all it's imperfections...well lets just say that's a no brainier.

....

We're discussing living African Americans. You know, the African Americans whom, themselves, were not enslaved. The African Americans, because of their ancestors enslavement don't find themselves in a 3rd world hellhole. The African Americans who have benefits such as: preferential awarding of contracts to minority owned businessess (on a federeal, state, and usually municipal level), prefential awarding of contracts to businesses which consciously try to hire 'oppressed minorites', affirmative action enacted for employment in Federal agencies, affirmative action for college admittance.... all this, in addition to the various benefits available to all citizens that would fall under the category of the social safety net (medicare, SSI, etc.). And then there's the benefits of - you know - living in an industrialized nation like... electricity, clean water, free primary education, etc.

Yes, slavery was ****. But the African American's we're discussing didn't go through it. However, as a result of it, they get all the benefits I listed above.

I suppose the question is; am I being more provocative than African Americans who bitch and moan about slavery they never experienced, but the rewards of which they reap when they turn on the goddamned faucet?

I am not a White Supremacist. However, the below are facts:

-African Americans commit more violent crimes than any other group in America
-African Americans commit more violent crimes against Whites than the other way around
-There is a profound racism in the African American community
-50% of American slaves were owned by individuals whom had 40 or more slaves
-the President is black
-America is white majority

The first four are assertions you are making without backing them up. The fifth is only half right. Only the sixth is a clearly supported fact.

I don't have the time to look them up and there is no reason for you to trust a stranger on the internet, but we did a project on violent crimes by race in my AP Stats class in high school and I remember what the other poster is saying as true. I also remember learning the fact about slave owners in my AP History class. Now, memories are often inaccurate so I'll let somebody pull up the proof before I go on, but I believe what he said to be true...

These benefits or special privileges were put in place over the last 60 years or so to correct the 300 years of discrimination before that. The historically ****ty treatment of them is unparalleled even by other groups that were treated poorly. Because white peoples ancestors,for the most part, weren't bought and sold like livestock--they are able to enjoy the peace and prosperity that they do today. For that they should be grateful.

My wife has a friend whose hillbilly high school taught her that Africans immigrated to the US and became slaves voluntarily. Color me unconvinced about the veracity of facts you think maybe you might remember from some high school class.

It's pretty appalling that they would teach such blatant lies in an educational institution... kinda sickens me, speaking as an educator myself...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_an...ate_statistics

Slavery in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's nice of you to try and backup his arguments for him since I guess he can't be bothered. I have to question the relevance of the second link though. I realize you're linking to it because of a point someone else was trying to make but what does it really say? It shows that class differences existed among whites in the 19th century and not much else. The slave owners were still white, the slaves were still black.

As far as the first link goes, the most glaring thing about it to me is how overrepresented blacks are among victims of violent crime. The percentages of victims of violent crime are roughly equal between blacks and whites, despite the fact that the US is roughly 80% white and 13% black. Unless my math is wrong here, that means that a black person is about six times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than a white person.

The reason for the second link was this statement:

And this statement was presented as a fact:

While my evidence does not specifically prove it to be factual, it can be inferred to be true or very close to true.



I also noticed that blacks are heavily over-represented amongst violent crimes, but I think an inference can be made: blacks are victims at roughly the same rate as whites. However, they also commit more violent crimes than whites, and as the table shows most homicides are committed within a race. 90% of black murders had a black victim, and because they commit more murders than any other race, it seems reasonable that they would also make up a high proportion of the victims...

I understand the reason for the second link. I'm just saying that even if it proves what he was saying, it doesn't mean very much.

But they aren't victims at the same rate as whites at all. According to the table you linked to, blacks are far more likely than whites to be victims of violent crime. 47.8% of all victims of violent crime in this country are black despite the fact that they are only 12.8% percent of the population. While 48.2% of all victims of violent crime are white despite the fact that they make up 79.8% of the population. Doesn't that strike you as a huge disparity?

Heh, but that means only a few people in the South were super-racist!

Yes, that strikes me as a huge disparity. So does the fact that blacks commit 36.5% (a plurality) of murders in this country, despite being a minority. And like I already stated, most murders are committed within a race. So, doesn't that mean they are "bringing it upon themselves" so to speak?

I hate politics in music. That's not why I listen to it. Obviously a lot of punk is politically driven to the left, but I listen because of the catchy riffs, simple chord progressions, good vocals, etc. I stopped going to the Warped Tour (after 7 years straight) simply due to half the bands vomiting their political propaganda on stage, instead of picking up their guitars and rocking out already!

lol. No it means only a few people in the South were super-rich.

Yes, the numbers of murders committed is also striking. And when one considers whether or not they are "bringing it upon themselves" one has to consider the context in terms of both conviction rates among blacks versus whites for the same crime and the differences in poverty level between the races.

As a Staunch Midnight Oil fan from waaaay back, i do believe there is a strong place for Politics in popular music. From it's very beginnings it made political impacts and often, whether intended or not, had political impacts... look at how polarizing Elvis was and how conservatives reacted to him... it was nothing short of a gigantic outrage! So whether or not you like it, if you impact the public in a massive way, you're bound to enter the political realm in some way.... it's because politics is about people and how the world is governed and what communities deem acceptable...

And hey if you have a great positive message why not use your unique place in the public eye to do some good... prove you're not some scrubby kid whosse head is full of irrelevant stupid thoughts... I'm ok with that.

If you don't like bands having thoughts, just tune out and go buy a beer between songs... or start listening to throwaway pop tunes...

Just want to point out a couple things. First, I dont believe for one second that any teacher taught that blacks immigrated here and became slaves voluntarily. Unless this person went to school in the 1800s, I think that was completely made up.. Also, alot of blacks owned slaves themselves. In fact, blacks were slaves in Africa, owned by other blacks, long before white folks got involved. Doesnt make it right, Im just sayin.

I dont think anyone is trying to argue that slavery was right or that it didnt have a great impact on future blacks. However, I find it very odd that immediatley following slavery there were ex slaves that did well for themselves. Owned property etc.. Also, they generally were very family oriented and spiritual. Now 100+ years after the end of slavery the black community is in shambles. Dont you think that over time the situation for blacks should have gotten considerably better, not worse? What we have here, and its not just on the part of blacks, is a society that wants everything handed to them. They dont want to take responsibility for themselves or work hard to achieve. They want to cry about past wrong doings and make claims that someone, or everyone owes them something.


Everyone should read the book "black rednecks, white liberals" by Dr. Thomas Sowell.

And one more thing. Stop trying to blame crime rates on poverty. I spent a large portion of my life in poverty and never commited a crime. Also, I find it humorous what we consider to be poor. Most poort people, white or black, have a car, a tv, cable, cell phone, internet, heat, AC, etc... The poor in the US live better than 90% of the rest of world..

aye aye Captain! Obviously your poverty isn't so bad now that you have access to the internet for long enough to post on a recreational interest site as this one is...

Well, I don't know what to tell you, I'm not making it up. The school in question was in Auburn Alabama and I know the person who was taught that as a student there. She is in her mid 30s now so she was presumably taught that in the 1980s or 1990s.

Yes, there was slavery in Africa. And in Europe. And in the Middle East. And in a lot of places historically. It doesn't change the fact that in the US it was whites owning blacks.

While it is true that after the Civil War there was an amazing amount of advancement for blacks in the US, what you neglect to mention is what came on the heels of that: the KKK, Jim Crow, and an array of other things which succeeded in pushing them back down again. I mean are you really arguing that everything was fine from the mid-1860s on and that there was no real need for the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s?

No. Im not arguing at all. What I am saying is there is no real need for a civil rights movement today. And that over the years as slavery fades farther into the past the black communities are getting worse. It would seem to me that by now, slavery shouldnt be an excuse for bad behavior, bad choices, violence etc.. Now, I feel that I should atleast point out the fact that obviously all blacks dont have racist views or violent tendencies. There are alot of decent hard working tax paying blacks that worked hard, got an education and have succeeded. But there are still alot, and again its not just blacks I think its more of a societal thing, that blame past wrong doings for their current situation and until we stop buying into that it will continue to happen. The white guilt has got to stop. I never owned a slave. In fact, my family didnt arrive here until slavery was over. No black alove today were ever slaves, nor were their parents or grandarents. Its time to stop using that as an excuse.

Okay, so we are in agreement that the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s was a necessary reaction to the massive institutional racism of that time. And that means, of course, that serious oppression of blacks in the US existed not just in mists of 19th century history, but also within living memory. You say "no blacks alive today were ever slaves." That's true, but you're ignoring the fact that there are many black Americans alive today who experienced segregation firsthand, who were denied the right to vote, who had friends or family who were lynched, and assorted other forms of oppression. I think it's pretty clear that something so recent still has lingering effects and, though things are getting better and better as more time passes, inequality certainly still exists today.

One last thing: You make the claim that black communities are getting worse. Are they? My understanding is, though there still is significant inequality, things are improving. I see the growing black middle class as an example of this.

The Penguin Encyclopedia of American History (2005 edition) was where I got my statistics on slavery.... under the "Slavery" topic, :P The rest is just a result of having "Anthropology: Social Stratification" as a minor.

It means that any notion of collective guilt on the part of whites is asinine, and - as you hint - it's more of an issue of class than race. To use a bit of vulgar historical materialism, the era of slavery in the USA, with the exception of the latter years, was bound to happen - the proto-capitalist and the still dominant mercantilist economy necessitated slavery. Racism was a by-product of this necessity... racism was a result of slavery, not a cause.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the point of conviction rates - wouldn't individuals from black majority neighborhoods tend to have black majority jury, as well? As jury duty is tied to where you vote...

You're forgetting that segregations effects weren't universal in the African American community. Some blacks were forced into povery because of it; some profitted handsomely from it. Further, you're forgetting that segregation's negative economic effects weren't limited to the black community - it harmed working class whites as well.

I don't even know where to begin with this one. First off, you're completely misreading my comment about class. Secondly, are you seriously arguing that racism did not exist among Europeans prior to slavery in the US? :laughing:

Say what? It's not like there are courthouses in every neighborhood. I don't know if this is true in every state, but in the majority of them certainly, courts cover entire counties. That means you get a jury drawn from across your whole county, not your particular neighborhood. I would assume any adult in the US would know this. Have you never had jury duty?

Considering the fact that you chose to ignore the rest of the sentence you quoted I'm not really going to dignify this comment with much of a response except to note that you now appear to be defending segregation as a nice little follow-up to your defense of slavery earlier. Are you absolutely sure you aren't a white supremacist?

There are many whites alive today that had friends or family lynched. Look up the figures. Lynching at that time was how they did things. Far more whites were lynched then blacks. Granted, blacks were lynched alot of time for no other reason that being black, but the fact remains that the number of whites lynched is higher than the number of blacks lynched. At any rate, as long as we keep making excuses seem valid things will not get better. Largely, there is no injustice today. Racism is in large part dead. Sure there are a few pockets of nuckle heads but that will never change. For the most part, whites and blacks, couldnt care less about skin color. And if you really get down to it, I would be willing to bet that if you could get everyone to be honest about whether or not they had racist views, there would be more blacks that are racist against whites than vice versa.

So you acknowledge that you are comparing apples and oranges then. Thanks! That saves me the effort writing any kind of rebuttal.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think racism is in a large part dead. Things are better than they used to be for sure, but we still have a ways to go. And, for the record, I do believe that applies to everyone, not just white people.

The notion of race only became popularized after institutionalized slavery came into being in the "new world". Remember, race is a cultural construction.

I defended segregation and slavery, when?

No, I've never had jury duty, and while I realize that every neighborhood doesn't have courthouses, often times neighborhoods will have their own polling station (at least for Presidential elections).

Source?

In this very thread.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the justice system and as a result is completely irrelevant to this conversation.

What are you asking for a source on? That its a social construct, or that it came to pass on slavery?

I'm looking for a source for his claim that racism only came into existence after new world slavery.

Fuck, man. Anybody can see that Janszoon knows his US/World History while Hip Hop Bunny (and his ilk) continues to spout White Supremecist pamphlet rhetoric.
As I already said, I fully believe in Hip-Hop Bunny's right to hate whoever he wants for any political or personal reason but let's stop humoring the racists on MB so much that they believe that their anti-non-white American views are based on any kind of valid reasoning. They're fucking racists, there are musical bands who encourage their view and we all have to live with it. So what?

You mean anyone who agrees with him can see that he knows his history. Fact is, he knows no more than anyone else who is posting. Thats not a knock on him, its just reality. Because you agree with him you think is history is better than others. Also, you post just proves that political correctness and white guilt has gone too far. Its to the point to where anyone who is white brings up a subject that even mentions blacks, they must be racist. Its silly really.

No it doesn't

Nobody is stopping you from saying what you think or saying you can't say it.

If your argument is torn to shreds it either means the stuff you're coming out with is rubbish, or you're not making the point very well.
Nothing to do with political correctness.