OK, so I provided a commonly referred to sub-genre, surf punk, a prominent band in that field, Agent Orange, and an explanation of why I think it's more surf rock than surf punk.

Here's another. Crust punk. Prominent band in this genre, Tragedy. Sounds closer to crossover and early 90's metalcore in most places to me. Lyrically they have an anti-establishment ethos, sure. But then that would mean a driving force behind punk is the ethos and the politics (vegan, anarchist, nihilist, etc) more than sound. And if that's the case then political climate and awareness is as integral to defining what 'punk' is as any of the music they play. Thus, the original anti-conservative climate in which the punk bands of the 70's and 80's started and "matured" is intrinsic to the music itself. Double thus, punk is dead. Doesn't mean people don't play fast, sloppy, rock songs. Just means it's not 'punk rock'.

You have not provided any logic, evidence, thought behind your post. But in my short time back, I haven't had any reason to think you would.

****ing roasted

No wave
Post punk
2 tone
deathrock
jazz punk
crunkcore
pop punk
synthpunk

There are a couple of punk subgenres.

crunkcore? that's considered punk?

Punk Rock is all about hair.

And hardcore is about the lack thereof.

I'm still struggling with what defines them as 'punk' as opposed to 'rock'. That's the question that has to answered for this argument to be settled. Is punk defined along musical lines? Or is it lyrics and ethos? Can't say I'm familiar with 'No wave', '2 tone' or 'crunkcore' but all the others are easily classified as rock music. Truly not trying to be difficult here. I've gone through this thread and no one is defining what they think the punk sound is (outside of a conversation about downstrokes). I think we need more clarity and distance between 'punk' and 'rock', otherwise it's going to keep being 'u.' 'no u.' 'no u!'


Sorry, didn't see this if you had explained it earlier.

So what you're saying is production values define punk rock? Or the professionalism of the musicians?

I'm glad you caught that.

How on earth is jazz punk rock?

Must have missed that one. But I'll flip that, what makes 'jazz punk' not 'jazz rock'? Like what is the defining characteristic that moves it away from rock music to punk.

Perv. we're not talking about Porn.

More energy. Plus jazz rock is a very diverse term.

I thought punk was letting your fellow inmates fuck you in the ass?

:laughing:

My punk rock credentials are worse than Chula's, but I thought I'd chip in with a bit of proto punk: this is from The Dictators' March 1975 album, so it predates some other suggestions here. My guess is that The Dictators had too much humour and not enough aggression to count as real punk rockers. Amirite?



Also, as I understand it, "Punk" was firstly the title of a NYC fanzine issued in the early days of CBGB's, describing bands that played there,etc,etc. Isn't that how the genre got its name? The Sex Pistols may've had a bigger success/impact, but they weren't, as someone suggested a few pages back, the first punk rock band.

I saw The Dictators last year at one of my favorite small venues and even with all the humor running throughout their songs, they definitely sound like what I consider to be punk rock. Richard "Handsome Dick" Manitoba and Ross "The Boss" Friedman from the original Dictators with JP “Thunderbolt” Patterson, Daniel Rey, and Dean Rispler. Easily one of the most thoroughly enjoyable and ass-kicking punk shows I've ever seen in the past 39 years (holy crap! the years fly by fast! :yikes:)

Arguably, Woody Guthrie was the first punk musician I can see.

A lot of his music was pro-working class, anti-corporatist and anti-fascist. It may not have been what we consider punk today, but lyrically it was punk as hell.

New York Dolls.

The band that started the "you don't have to be the greatest musicians to make music" band.

The Ramones, The Clash, The Sex Pistols all credit The Dolls as their major influence. Johnny Thunders to be exact.

Malcolm McLaren formed the Sex Pistols because The New York Dolls broke up shortly after he took over as their manager.

Punk artists had a host of influences. But, they all credit the Dolls as a major one.

Of course Johnny's look was taken over by the hair metal bands of the 80s. But, Johnny was one of a kind.

^ Sorry, Psy-Fi, I've only just caught up with your post. I can imagine that live, they'd put on quite a show - more fun than their studio stuff, probably. Also, it's kind of you to defend my candidate, especially given that I am just a tourist in this genre. Thanks.

Welcome to MB, Mr.Mushroom :wave: I like your user name, and hope you enjoy yourself here.
Unfortunately, I am obliged to disagree completely with your post! Those three characteristics you mention have run like a thread through folk music - and blues, for that matter- since folk music began. Punk and folk may have attitudes in common, but that doesn't mean the labels are interchangeable. Still, I'm glad you should mention Woody Guthrie, and even make a case for him here. That's excuse enough for me to post this long saga, so others can decide just how punk he is:-

The Ramones

^ Woody Guthrie is as punk as they come!

Hrmm... The first ones I loved were Bad Brains and Los Saicos. (and pretty much all of the south American 60s garage bands)

Marry me?

Sure, why not!

I could name quite a few reasons why not actually

I think there needs to be a clear distinction that there is a punk culture and a punk genre. The punk culture is the look and the hair and the attitude and the rebellion. The genre is the music. There could be bands that are part of the punk culture and not part of the genre then, right?

From the punk I've heard there is a definite sound to it. And it's not just being unprofessional or unconventional music because that'd make Lil Yahty punk. I have a hard time describing the sound, but it's like distorted and obnoxious guitars played in a mess manner. It was unconventional for it's time. With vocals to match. I think that's kind of the idea behind punk. The obnoxiousness and the in your face chaos of it's sound.

As for punk being cliche, everything is cliche.

And you couldn't really say punk is dead, with how much influence it still has on modern music. Even in hip hop with artists like Ho99o9 and XXXtentecion embracing the harsh and obnoxious sounds of punk. Oh, and how could I leave Deathgrips out of that.

Who created the first punk song is a rabbit hole we can go down forever. It's definitely not Led Zepplin though. I thought it was common knowledge that they stole most, if not all, of their songs from lesser known artists.

Who was the first punk band I wouldn't know. Probably the Stooges according to what I've seen here.

Edit: Then again I probably shouldn't be talking about a genre when I can hardly name any songs from it.

I don't mean it in a condescending way. Like it's bad. I guess a better word for it would be flamboyant. Like it's loud and attention grabbing.

It's harmonious chaos.

Edit: Not full on dissonance.

Yeah, but it's still harmonious. Which is contradicting, but I guess that's kind of the beauty of punk.

And there is punk rock with a professional sound. I think you're confusing professional with conventional. Which I wouldn't use to describe it either. It was unconventional when it first came out, compared to what was out then, but Punk definitely does have it's conventions and tropes just like any genre.

The first punk band I technically listened to would have to be the Clash or the Ramones, but I only knew Should I Stay Or Should I Go and I Wanna Be Sedated.

But I would consider the first punk band I listened to to probably be Bikini Kill.

Afi

lol

First one was Green Day, then Offspring. Didn't get me into punk. But the first punk band that ever got me into punk was definitely Sex Pistols. Will always love Johnny Rotten for "Anarchy in the UK". It's so retarded it's brilliant.

Rotten in general is wildly entertaining.

I can't wait for the day when you make the same transformation that Gavin made. :tramp:

Me too, bud.

Man, I was hoping you had somethibg better than this for a comeback. I'll let you try again. Go ahead.

... No, my penis is bigger!

For me it was Suicidal Tendencies, then Nevermind the Bollocks.

There were plenty of punk bands playing around when I started going out to pubs. Cosmic Psychos were an early favourite. Vicious Circle, Depression, G.A.S.H., Bastard Squad, Aardvarks Afterbirth, S.I.C., Arm the Insane, Hardons, Extremes, Meanies.

The names some of these bands come up with never cease to amaze.

Thank you for reminding me I still need to listen to Cosmic Psychos.

Oh yeah, and Radio Birdman were epic, early Aussie punk too.