Cuthbert

What way do you not see a difference? The sound? There is a difference. I remember when I heard I Luv U for the first time and remember thinking 'what genre is this '. Everyone was calling it Garage but it didn't sound like it, I'd never heard anything like it tbh. Compare it to Shanks & Bigfoot's 'Sweet Like Chocolate', DJ Pied Piper 'Do U Really Like It'. Totally different. Around this time as well, journalists were using terms like '8 bar', and 'dark Garage' / 'grimy Garage' to describe the sound the production was taking. That's how the term 'Grime' became a thing.

Ninetails has it about right in this thread. Wiley (most people would say he is the biggest pioneer) was in Pay As You Go who were a Garage crew (check 'Champagne Dance'). He also produced 'Nicole's Groove' in the 90's under the name Phaze One which is clearly a Garage record, but sounds nothing like Eskimo or Ice Rink which are Grime. Megaman (of So Solid) was also one of Wiley's influences/mentors.

Pretty much all of the big boys and pioneers of the sound, were Garage heads before Grime became a thing. You can hear the Garage influence in producers like Royal-T, Preditah, Rapid and so on.

As for DnB, not too clued up on that, I've never really been a fan, but most of the yardie type MC's were junglists in the 90's. There is a track on Kano's first album called Reload It and you can hear the DnB influence on that.

I'd probably say Garage influenced the production more, and DnB the vocals, or rapping style if you like. Originally anyway.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26jo6EA_tkU

Wiley in 1998.

John Wilkes Booth

i'm not denying any of this history.. it's not like i'm saying it's not a distinct style but that seems like all it is to me, not a brand new genre that doesn't have its basis in the previous 30 years of american hip hop. but let me ask you something... is that video an example of "garage"? if so then that vocal style sounds like it was taken from rap as well. i can show u krs tracks where the vocals sound similar to that from 1980 something lol.

Cuthbert

Could you not apply this to most genres? Including Hip-Hop.

No.

& KRS is of Jamaican origin, he was probably influenced by toasting himself like these guys were.

I'm not denying the MC's were influenced by the Americans & Hip-Hop because they clearly were but I've made a point that I'm not talking about the MC's, I don't care about them, they don't make the genre, the Grime producers do. The MC's just vocal whatever is 'in'. That's why they've all fucked off to make Trap now.

When I say Grime, I am referring to the instrumental side which is a legitimate genre in it's own right. You're probably referring to the whole 'scene'. I'd say it's London/UK accented Hip-Hop to a certain extent.

But in terms of the genre, if you think Grime is Rap, by default you should think Dubstep is also.

"Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live" - KRS-One.

Lauryn Hill's first record is considered to be Hip-Hop but there is next to no rapping on it. Same for the Incredible Bongo Band's 'Apache'.

Linkin Park's 'In The End' has rapping on it but it is not a Hip-Hop record.

There is Hip-Hop on it, Fix Up Look Sharp for example.

It's 90% Grime though.

John Wilkes Booth

yea all genres have their influence... i'm saying the format of dude rapping over a beat was what defined hip hop and as far as i know grime is the only other 'genre' so far to have the same exact format.



alright, fair enough. i hadnt considered that people only listen to it for the beats.



do i have to dig up a quote of a rapper referring to hip hop music as rap to refute this or are you willing to just let this semantics point drop?

yea there are some weird exceptions/extensions of the genre that really don't seem to fit but overall my point stands.

...right... i wasnt saying rapping isnt also a style of vocals



i suppose i don't really hear the difference since hip hop has a variety of sounds to it. i'm just wondering how different you have to make a beat before it stops being considered hip hop. like i can think of underground american rap aritsts that sound less similar to most rap music than dizzee rascal does.

DeadChannel

But the question is: is it music?

John Wilkes Booth

don't start that **** in here man.

DeadChannel

Hahahaha, I just really miss that other guy (he left, right)

Urban Hat€monger ?

It's not exclusive to hip hop at all.
You'll find it used in reggae, dancehall, beat poetry, funk, soul & jazz long before hip hop ever became a thing.

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John Wilkes Booth

ok i could be wrong.... can i get some examples? i mean not like this one song the guy sorta raps... do you have an example of an artist or group where the emphasis was consistently on a person rapping over a beat.

Urban Hat€monger ?

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