How many genres?
 

Some background:

I have been a metal fan since 1986, after being hypnotised by IRON MAIDEN : LIVE AFTER DEATH. After being in the scene for a while, I noticed the many sub genres of metal, and found a fair amount of narrow mindedness. EG I liked PINK FLOYD (not heavy-but they are a rock band), but my METAL friends constantly took the rise as FLOYD were not deemed heavy enough. I eventually tired of this ; and although I kept listening to my metal music, I pretty much left the scene (circa 1992-2000).

Upon slowly integrating myself back in the scene, I was shocked to find that the sub-genres had increased threefold. Now I don't know what band is classed as what. This f[u]cks me off. The metal scene has to be one of the most pretentious scenes ever. Now before I get ****-I LOVE metal, it has shaped my life, and has lead me to my current situation as a father. HOWEVER there seems to be a constant need to categorise a band. The only other genre that has this is DANCE. Hmmm-both loved by under 25's. Not exclusively; but primarily.

Why are there so many sub genres in Metal? Indie is Indie at the end of the day, Reggae is Reggae etc.

I absolutely hated genre tags when I was younger, and I am utterly dismayed to find that the genre tags have got wider!

Guess what though-to the outsider, it's still metal. We seem to have an overwhelming obsession to categorise music, to associate ourselves with a certain form, and look down with disdain at other forms of metal.

I am not saying that we dont need categorys, but why so many? It seems like it's an unconcious effort to create something new.

A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash!

I would love it for metal fans to stop being so precious about their tags, because in 10 years it does'nt matter. If you like what you are listening to, then that is the only tag you need.

(I know I'm going to get crap for this but hey!).

A band like LAMB OF GOD are considered Metalcore. This tag gives me a generic make up of Metal and Hardcore. If that is correct, then METALLICA are Metalcore, they basically fused DIAMOND HEAD with DISCHARGE, but they are thrash!

Lamb of God combines modern hardcore (far different then the OGs) with groove thrash tendencies.

Metallica first was a combination of as you said Diamond Head (NWOBHM, Aka classic rock/punk drumming, blues and classic influences, a higher pitched singer) and Discharge (classic hardcore punk) which makes them thrash. Thrash is, in its crudest form, a combination of traditional metal (like NWOBHM) complexity in the music, with the aggression, and heavy distortion of original hardcore punk.



I personally find it best to use as many genre tags as I can when describing a band. I don't know why but it makes feel like I can identify them more than just throwing a general tag on them and forget everything.

See I cannot here any GROOVE whatsoever in LAMB OF GOD. Groove is derived from soul/funk/ reggae and blues and I cannot hear any of this in their music.

I know what Metallica are, that's why they are thrash-a literal translation of thrashing genres.

When I describe a band, I prefer to use as few genre tags as I can.

Keep posting though, I want this one to run, as there are no definitive answers.

The groove comes from the Pantera, my friend. As they are one of the more well known metal bands, and the bringer of groove thrash. This mostly influenced many groove based 'metal' bands (Nu Metal, Devildriver, Modern Hardcore in some aspects). Lamb of God is one that really based their style on the Pantera worship more than the scene metalcore of today. Some say they are more of a post thrash influence (see Meshugga and Byzantine).

Also, 10 years ago, most metal genres that existed (that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases) were very similar to each other. Speed Metal, Thrash Metal, NWOBHM, even Power Metal at the time were all closely related in sound in some way or anther. In this day and age, the genre tree has branched so far and made such diverse styles that many see heavy use of genre tagging as a way to keep the metal umbrella from being meshed into chaos.

For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.

I agree that many might abuse the genre system of metal or use it incorrectly but I think that with the type of genre metal is, the genre tags are needed.

I still am not getting this Groove tag. I have heard a couple of Pantera tracks (which I did'nt like), so if they instigated it, then they have used a blues based influence for their groove, which then brings the genre full circle!

--For instance, Kamelot's The Haunting sounds nothing like Wormed's Tunnel of Ions yet they are both metal.---

I have'nt heard either track. I would appreciate some up's!

--(that most knew about, Black Metal and Death Metal are different cases)--

why are they different? Black Metal was primarily a theme based music I.E iconography, lyrics etc and Death Metal was Thrash relieved of it's punk roots and a metal progression of prog influences.

because both genres were extremely underground at that time and not many people knew of them in their growing days. I wont deny that they are very unique sounding genres, its that they were still very obscure at that time.

for the songs, I cant upload them now but I can provide alternative means of listening to them

YouTube - KAMELOT - The Haunting
MySpace.com - WORMED - ES - Death Metal / Experimental / Metal - www.myspace.com/wormed

i hear you jackhammer. as i have said before "genres lead to ignorance". although i see the advantage of genres from time to time, in general they tend to just make people closeminded to something. i just like music ;)

I'd say metal and hardcore are the worst about subgenres. Seriously, you can add -core to the end of any genre and you will find out its already an established hardcore subgenre.

I personally lump all hardcore/metalcore/deathcore/grindcore together as hardcore, mostly for iPod convenience.

I just use the term metal when talking to my friends but talking to other metal fans it makes it easier because of instead of saying I like metal, I'm able to say I like "symphonic metal" as opposed to liking "death metal". Which shows that I like softer vocals with insane music in the background. It reveals a lot to fellow metal fans.

I'd like to think that the genre tags have emerged due to the different sounds that have emerged in metal over the years. A lot of the current metal has roots from the Thrash Metal / Metallica days. Like Crossbreed sounds nothing like Slipknot, and if you know what the genre sounds like, then another metal fan says such and such band sounds like such and such genre, you just might know what they're talking about.

There are so many more genres around now, because metal has diversified so much.. some genres which now play a big part have only emerged in the past 5 years or so. 'post-metal' for example didnt really exist before Neurosis' Sun That Never Sets / Isis' Oceanic... but its now a useful term to describe hundreds of bands.

There are huge differences in sounds.. Khanate sound nothing like Dragonforce for example, and its unlikely that anyone will enjoy listening to both.. but theyre both referred to as 'metal'... genres make it easier to find something you may like.

Another point is that the big influences are disappearing.. 10 years or so ago, almost every metal band was directly influenced by Slayer/Metallica/Sabbath/floyd.. although alot of bands still are, There are far more now who are influenced by a more varied selection of later bands... the metal bands i know barely listen to any of the above... they're influences are from bands like Botch, Neurosis, Carcass, Earth, Electric Wizard etc who all took metal a step further... and the new bands are taking it further again.

Well to be honest, I see that as their loss and not as a reason to eschew subgenres. I listen to a HELL of a lot of music but I think subgenres are useful. My metal folder on my computer is divided into:

Black
Death
Doom/Gothic
Folk/Viking
Heavy/Alt
Industrial
Metalcore/Nu
Power/Symphonic
Prog/Experimental
Thrash

Post-metal goes into my post rock/metal folder which is given equal status with rock, metal, jazz etc.

I do break some subgenres up further - death is broken up into blackened, melodic, technical and brutal/grind. Notice that melodic death is actually a subgenre of death, whereas blackened death is a combination of black and death (bands like Behemoth, Abominator etc.).

But before anyone goes ahead and says that's ridiculous, they have to remember it's not ridiculous to someone who knows these genres well, and has 170 GB of metal alone. A stoner doom band is a universe away from a funeral doom band.

^^ agreed. i only have about 30gb of mp3s at the mo, divided into:

post-rock & shoegaze
indie & folk
avant-garde & noise
black & doom
crust & grind
sludge & post-metal
emo & post-hardcore
SD releases

Genres only couse problems when people dont know what they're talking about.

don't get me wrong, i will still use genres to describe something to someone i don't think will close their ears once i say 'indie' or 'electronica' or 'classical'.

the first thing i do when i d/l a new album is strip the genre tag. my itunes has a total of 0 genres :)

thanks for the links

Kamelot-talk about cheese! That was awful commercial twaddle.

Wormed-give me Carcass anyday!

You see I would'nt call Kamelot (sic) metal at all. Just commercial rock.

Categories and genres are important. When you have a solid classification system, you can get a clear understanding of what kind of music you like and what kind of bands to look for.

But nowadays its gotten a little out of hand, with a bunch of kids thinking that it's necessary to come up with a new genre for every band in existence. Hence the 12 billion metal sub-genres there are now.

If it wasn't for metal kids getting their knickers in a twist over sub-sub-sub genres ,we wouldn't have such amusing threads as this one...

http://www.musicbanter.com/rock-meta...tml#post346462

I think it becomes apparent after a few posts that they are either making this up as they go along or they have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

i disagree. its an interesting discussion.. they all know their fair bit but The Unfan and Riseagainst obviously know most about the (well established) genre.

Funeral Doom? :laughing:

My my my. They can't even come up with names that don't sound completely ridiculous anymore.

Funeral Doom has been around for years!

'Funeral Doom bands' [doom-metal.com]

1000 Funerals

AHAB
Amaranthine Trampler
Asunder
Austerity

Before The Coruscating Apollyon
Believe in Nothing
Beprasmybe
Beyond Black Void
Bosque

Celestiial
Colosseum
Comatose Vigil
Consummatum Est
Craving, The

Dark Abyss
Despond
Dictator
Dionysian
DOOM:VS
Doomcide
DoomSquirrel
DoomThrone
Dusk Ov Shadows

Ea
Eleventh Room, the
Endymion
Enoch
Ethereal, the
EtonéDicius

Fragments Of Duration
Funeral
Funeral Orchestra, the
Funeralium
Funerary Dirge
Fungoid Stream

Grívf

Hierophant
Hymn Of Lament
Hyponic

I Drowned In A Stream Of Mourn
Iniquitous
Intaglio
Inter Arbores
Iota Draconis

Kairi

Lacrymae Rerum
Lake Of Depression
Liquescent Horror, The
Longing For Dawn
Lord Grief
Lux Incerta

Maiden Voyage
MausoleuM
Midwinter Storm
Misery
Monolithe
Mournful Congregation
Mørkheim

Nepenthean
Night Must Fall
Night Of Suicide
Nortt

Of Darkness
Oktor

Pantheist

Qabr
Quasar

Reclusiam
Reido
Remembrance
Rigor Sardonicous

Sad Sun, The
Senthil
Serenity Forgotten
Shape Of Despair
Sinistra
Skepticism
Solicide
Stabat Mater

Tears Of A Mourning Angel
Thergothon
This Empty Vessel
Through the Valley
TOMB
Torture Wheel
Tragedy Eternal
Tyranny

Unholy Cross
Until Death Overtakes Me

Whelm
Wind Through The Trees
Witchthrone
Wormphlegm
Worship
Wraith Of The Ropes

I'm pretty much in agreement with you here. A certain number of genres and key sub-genres are important, but they've definitely gone overboard with it the last several years.

:laughing:

I understand that we have to give broad genre descriptions, that's a given. I just don't understand how many more genres are popping along every week. One of the latest I have heard is BATTLE METAL-for god's sake where does this crap come from? DRAGONFORCE are an exponent, and all they are doing is speeding up bands like HELLOWEEN, it's not original at all, so why the genre tag.

I can agree with Sound Devastation with the emergence of Post Rock. It is a new sound and can merit a genre tag, but some tags are just ridiculous, and a lot of bands don't sound any different to bands 20 years ago.

I may come across as an old git, and seem like I'm behind with the times, but I have not seen enough GENUINE new styles of metal to warrant these genre tags.

Once again; I am NOT dissing certain bands because I don't like metal,far from it. I am merely pointing out that the genre is cyclical, and we were arguing about genre tags years ago and creating confusion for the uninitiated.

It doesnt always have to be a 'new sound' though. Its possible for a genre (like doom metal) to get so varied and so diverse that it splits. Even in funeral doom there will be differences.. and as the number of bands increases the differences will widen.

Doom metal varies? Ok so how is this so? Again; i'm not picking holes, I genuinely would like to know. Faster,slower, heavy, light-these things are variations on the same scene. Is classical music showing influence. Are these bands warranting new tags bringing anything genuinely new to the genre?

If you can't hear the huge differences between Black Sabbath and How Like A Winter than chances are you're deaf.

It can vary in pretty much any way! Classical music is influencing some bands (listen to Kayo Dot).

obviously not every new doom band brings something new, but some do, and 'some' are enough to cause a shift towards that sound which breaks away from the main genre.

I rest my case....

Black Sabbath are a heavy blues rock band.. that's it, in fact virtually all their 80's output was plain metal with no doom in site. Add something constructive and read the whole of my post before replying. I am NOT saying Doom Metal does'nt vary, I was looking for examples.

If you need doom metal examples, how about this.

Zaraza
http://www.archive.org/download/Zara...kazany_vbr.mp3

Candlemass
YouTube - Candlemass - Bewitched

No not Candlemass ARRGGHH! Seen them Live way back in 89 supporting NUCLEAR ASSAULT and I have always hated their image and operatic vocal schizz. Have they changed? I will take a look. Thanks.

I <3 Candlemass

that is cool that you saw them back in 89.

Yeah it was at Hammersmith Odeon in London, and that you tube track just reminded me how bad they were! The music is tolerable, but those vocals drive me insane! Did you hear Candlemass before Sabbath at all? If I had heard these first I would have probably been into these instead, but next to Sabbath-it's just a rehash! It's only an opinion though.

---It can vary in pretty much any way! Classical music is influencing some bands (listen to Kayo Dot).---

I really like Kayo Dot and that is where a genre tag is justified.

Many of those band names are so laughably bad to the extent that I'm convinced you made all of them up.

Yeah but to be fair OZRIC TENTACLES is a terrible band name ..and I love them!

If it helps I can upload albums from most of those bands.

Of course the term 'funeral doom' is going to sound stupid to you guys since you probably don't listen to any doom. But it has been around for a long time and is worthy of a genre tag. Funeral doom is an apt title... I don't listen to that much of it, but some of it is strikingly beautiful.

E.g. funeral doom might be to doom what the Canterbury scene is to prog.



I don't think Candlemass sounds like a rehash of Sabbath, but I can see why you might think that if you don't listen to much doom. Candlemass has always had a very epic sort of sound. The real Sabbath clones are to be found in traditional/stoner doom. I like Messiah but I can see how he would get on some people's nerves. I actually prefer the vocals on Epicus Doomicus Metallicus - the vocalist there was a session pop singer. :D


Yeah, battle metal is a stupid genre tag. I think it started as a bit of a joke term when Turisas released an album by that title. :laughing:

I lump all my favorite metal bands into the following just to keep it simple. Mainly for the purpose of organizing my cd case and nothing more.

Nu-metal (This includes Alternative Metal)
Metalcore
Deathcore
Grindcore
Heavy Metal
Thrash Metal
Power Metal
"Dark" Metal (Not a genre name, of course, but includes Black Metal, Symphonic Metal, Gothic Metal, and eventually Doom Metal)
Death Metal (Includes both melo and brutal, and the in between).

As far as progressive metal goes, I have very VERY few of them, and I'll throw them in whatever genre I hear most from.


I don't look down on any particular genre, and I'm not arrogant enough to deny that there are generic bands in all genres. Every genre has knock offs. I just draw the line somewhere. Like, for instance, I would most likely favor any Death metal band, generic or not, over any nu-metal band everytime, and I'll most likely look at every nu-metal band and say "typical nu-garbage", yet my favorite band overall happens to be a nu-metal band (Disturbed). I'll go to shows that headline a band I love but have various hardcore acts following them who all play the same ****ing breakdowns everytime and I'll b*tch about it, BUT then I'll put in All That Remains or Elysia in my Cd player and rock out with my **** out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is while I use genres mainly to organize my cd's, I'll use them in order to find music I like and avoid music I don't like. Odds are I'm gonna find more bands I like in Death Metal than in nu-metal because of innovation and technicality. I go with the odds.

It's kind of how when I'm going through a bad neighborhood and I see a group of black guys, my white man instincts will tell me to avoid them, but I won't condemn an entire race because of that.


I've read this and I will understand if you call me a retard. I kind of babble on now and then. I'll give you a dollar if you understand what I'm saying.

Yeah it is... But prog band names are just ridiculous.

Metal band names however are appalling. Fragments Of Duration? WTF is that bullsh*t?

I also wouldn't compare this thing to the Canterbury scene, since for one the Canterbury scene was more of a movement among musicians from a certain area who just happened to know each other and play in each others bands than it was a genre distinguished by a certain sound.

Fine... symphonic prog then... space rock - whatever works. :D

As much as I love prog, I've never really understood Canterbury as a label anyway.

Can we start a list of all metal/Rock related genres please? So far:

Heavy Metal
Thrash Metal
Speed Metal
Power Metal
Glam Metal
Death Metal
Prog Metal
Nu Metal
Rap Metal
Metalcore
Pomp Rock
Progressive Rock
Doom Metal
Funeral Doom
Space Rock
Psychedelic Rock
Deathcore
Grindcore
Gothic Metal
Battle Metal
Southern Rock
Black Metal
Symphonic Metal
Viking Metal


I KNOW I have missed loads! I'm not the biggest indie fan, but it has no subgenres, and covers a HUGE musical spectrum. QFT.


Stoner Rock
Sludge Metal