It's not exactly a revelation is it?

Not exactly and I still prefer the Ozzy era. However I haven't listened to any Sabbath other than the Dio era for months now. Such good stuff.

Holy Mother of Jesus Christ our savior, I love Black Sabbath. First album I got was Master of Reality and it completely blew my mind. Amazing record. So with my mind still blown I went out and bought Paranoid, not as good as Master of Reality but still great. Waiting for Vol. 4 and Black Sabbath to arrive in my mailbox now.

The mailman better hurry.

My alltime favorite band. Great thread
I totally agree about 'Changes'. Ozzy must have written it during a lucid moment.

Was there actually a song called 'Rat Salad', or was it a mistake on the cover?

The Dio stuff is phenomenal. So much so, they should have been allowed to rename the band at that point.

Sabotage is probably my most listened to album. I wonder if the 'blow on a jug' song is on the CD?

Any rumours about new stuff from Tony in 2011?

I find it hard to forgive him for being so cruel to Bill Ward.

There is definitely an instrumental called Rat Salad on my CD copy of Paranoid.

Sabbath calls for a simplistic approach, preferably over a beer.

Best albums: "Sabbath bloody sabbath", "Sabotage".
Most underrated albums: "Technical ecstasy", "Never say die".
Most overrated album: "Paranoid"
Best riffs: "A national acrobat", "Black sabbath", "Symptom of the universe"
Facepalm: "Rat salad", "Rock'n roll doctor", "Swinging the chain", "She's gone"
Beatles graduates: "Sabbath bloody sabbath", "You won't change me", "It's alright", "Junior's eyes", "Air dance", "Looking for today", "Never say die"
Best instrumental: "Supertzar", "Fluff"

And by the way, Budgie were much cooler than Sabbath. Yeah, I did!

HELL NO you didn't!!!

I actually think Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is pretty overrated, and Technical Ecstacy is one big facepalm.
Rat Salad is a hell of a song, but you were spot on with most overrated, it's not even in their top 5 albums. (If you include Dio material)
Underrated Album: Master of Reality

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is great! With Volume 4, I think Sabbath became slightly repetitive, but with instrumentals such as Fluff, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath added a progressive vein to their vocabulary. And I agree with Dotoar, A National Acrobat has a great riff. Though I think their best riff is the one in Lord Of This World from Master Of Reality, which I think is their best album by far.
I haven't listened to Technical Ecstasy, so I can't comment on that one. :( But I think you can add Changes from Volume 4 to your facepalm-list.

Really?

Really. It's painfully obvious that they tried to emulate "Moby ****"/"Toad". Bill Ward is a decent drummer but a virtuoso worthy of his own solo spot he is not. And the riff is just blah.

A lot of people seem to dislike "Changes". Well, it's not a masterpiece by any means but at least they tried to expand their formula. Maybe it's the mellotron that saves the day for me. Everything tastes better with mellotron.


(Moby ****, Moby ****, Moby ****, why can't I write Moby ****? We gladly send reinforcements to the mid-east to kill off citizens, but god forbid that someone happens upon an obscene word once in a while! Censorship is bull****!)

Agreed I think its a great song on a great album. Live its fantastic as well. The crowd went nuts when it begun.

This was what I thought too upon my first time hearing it.

Well, to think that Led Zeppelin invented to drum solo(or anything...) is ludicrous. To be honest, Jazz drummers well pioneered the art before either Bill Ward or Jon Bonham ever hit the scene. In fact, compared to a really good jazz drummer even Bonham falls very very short.

As for the drum solo, it's short, and it's very fun to listen to. It's not like he's whipping out a 20 minute Deep Purple-escue extended solo. Honestly, I don't think it sounds that bad, and it seems to be well transposed into the song, I could care less if he's virtuoso, or how he stacks against other drummers.

Honestly, I see Rat Salad as less of an attempt to imitate Moby ****, and more of an attempt to emulate the vastly popular jazz-fusion sound at the time, and to be honest, unlike most emulations, it does a decent job of keeping the tone that Black Sabbath established.

Sabbath I think experimented much more than they're given credit for, and I'd consider Rat Salad one of the few successes from that experimentation. I mean, it's a B-side, and it's one where they're actually taking a risk not playing it safe with in the boundaries of the sound they invented, and were the only figments of at the time. After all, nothing about Sabbath was about virtuosity, it was all about creativity.

I mean, at least it wasn't the ten thousand of ****ty ballad songs they did. Apart from Planet Caravan, were all terrible.

Cool it down, I never claimed Zeppelin to be pioneers of drum solos, and frankly, I don't think that "Moby ****" is that great either. Or Cream's "Toad" for that matter. I just don't think that Ward has the chops to make justice of a worthy drum solo. Deep Purple, for instance, at least had the sensibility to save that kind of stuff for the live shows (not to mention that Ian Paice is a much more skilled drummer). Besides, I don't even feel much invention in the track, even for Sabbath, considering that the times more or less called for an obligatory drum solo in the backpack.

I do agree though, that ballads were not their forte, and their (relative) experimentation never really took off until "Sabbath bloody sabbath".

I wasnt aware it takes tons of technical talent to be able to have a drum solo. Coming from a drumming background what he does on that track is hardly beginner stuff... Sure its not backing a jazz standard in 69/435 time but its pretty solid sounding and beyond a lot of rock drummers grasps. Keith Moon/Bohnum was hardly a very technically skilled drummer and he is certainly worthy of a solo.

To bring in jazz drumming as a comparison is rubbish. Whens the last time someone compared Hendrix to a jazz guitarist? Because that jazz musician knows how to play a Aminorflat5 in 10 spots instead of maybe 1 or 2 he is better?

Now you're reaching too far. First of all: I'm not comparing his drumming skills to Bonham/Moon or anyone, and I sure haven't brought in tricky time signatures, much less Hendrix vs. jazz guitarists, to the discussion. I'm talking about the displaying of drum solos in general and Ward's drum skills in relation to that.

Secondly, Bill Ward is a decent drummer but not a good soloist, and the things he does on "Rat salad" are average at best and not at all imaginative (there are very few 'official' drum solos that are, actually), and not even the most stubborn-minded Sabbath fanboy could argue with that. Apart from that track he does a fine job in drumming in what I consider to be one of the best metal bands ever, and he's definitely a part of their sound which happened to be quite revolutionary. (I somehow feel I gotta emphasize that I really like Sabbath here, but I'm not that close-minded that I cannot spot their obvious flaws either).

Perhaps I was reaching but I only reached to get across a point I was trying to make.

And I never said he was a great soloist, in fact I dont think anyone should/could/would. The thing is Sabbath's sound is based of very primal basic sounds. Iommi for instance was one of the few guitarists that never played anything shred style like most people in that time were starting to do. I feel like such a proficient technically gifted drummer would have offset that band and not fit in.

You are correct in that no, I dont think anyone would listen to Wards drum solo and be like damn one day im gona solo just like that.

I don't know why Rat Salad is getting so much hate.

Especially as that album has one of the most boring 'classics' they ever recorded in War Pigs.

Which essentially was my only point.

I agree. Their strength didn't lie in virtuosic playing (even if I'd say that Iommi sure could pick up steam every now and then), but rather in proving that you can be inventive without technical proficiency.

Think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was actually kind of making the point that the song was attempting to be slightly jazzy, and also basically said the same thing that you are saying here.

I have recently read a book entitled "The Encyclopedia of Heavy Metal", in that that book there is a list of essential metal albums and in first place is the Black Sabbath album "Heaven and Hell", now I do agree that "Heaven And Hell" is an essential metal album but I do not think it should be in first place on this list, anyone else agree or disagree with me.

I think that Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is bloody brilliant!

Every one of their albums is great, at least w/ Ozzy. I never got any of the Dio/Martin stuff, is it any good?

According to so called metal experts in books etc its about as essential as "Balls to the Wall" by Accept. Personally I find Dio quite boring to listen to and find that whole sound very dated.

You actually think "Technical Ecstasy" and "Never Say Die" to be good albums?

^those two albums were nothing special, first 6 are the best.

But "Heaven and Hell" and "Mob Rules" are both excellent albums. Should be listened to.

You've never heard Heaven and Hell? Really worth a listen.

As for the Tony Martin stuff, never really got into it.

I honestly think Iron Man is the more boring "classic." Give me nearly any song on Sabotage over that one.

That's another thing.

WHY IS SABOTAGE SO UNDERRATED!? IT'S CRIMINAL I TELL YOU!

That album was the heaviest thing I've ever heard out of that timeframe. I mean come on, 1975 and Sabbath come out with practically a thrash metal album. Ozzy just gives it everything he's got on it too. Megalomania is one of the greatest Sabbath songs ever recorded.

Sabotage came out after the group had put out five classic albums, its a good album but does have some holes in it. I don`t know if I would call it thrash in any way, but "Symptom of the Universe" is certainly a big influence on thrash.

If you want heavy in that timeframe, try checking out Deep Purple "In Rock" that was 1970 and it was fast and heavy!!!

But then again, there are some who don't even consider Sabbath Bloody Sabbath to be a classic.

I honestly don't own any Deep Purple. I've heard the Machine Head is essential. Is In Rock essential as well?

I think Sabbath Bloody Sabbath an absolute classic and the second best album in their discography.

Master of Reality> Sabbath Bloody Sabbath> Paranoid> Black Sabbath> Black Sabbath Vol.4> Sabotage>>>>>>>>>Technical Ecstasy> Never Say Die

There are three essential Deep Purple albums and one essential live album. "In Rock" "Fireball" "Machine Head" and "Made in Japan". I`d say Machine Head was one of the very best hard rock albums ever recorded!

There is also a Deep Purple thread on this forum, but sadly it seldom gets used (I was usually the only person in there).

So is "In Rock" heavier than say "Megalomania" from Sabotage? What's the heaviest song Deep Purple have? What are your rankings for Deep Purple albums?

Remember "In Rock" came out 5 years earlier than "Sabotage" so its not a fair comparison, better comparison would be to say that "In Rock" was heavier than the "Black Sabbath" debut album which came out the same year.

Deep Purple is really about the essential Mk.2 line-up and these are the albums.

Machine Head> In Rock> Fireball>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Who Do You Think We Are plus of course the "Made in Japan" live album and imo one of the best live albums ever recorded.

I think Technical Ecstacy and Never Say Die! get unfairly bashed. While they aren't as classic as the first six albums, they are still solid hard-rock releases where Sabbath experiments. I think the drugs were getting to them though.

Not too much info around that I can find about this latest supergroup (hate that word) but check the line up:

Tony Iommi
Ian Gillan
Jason Newsted
Nicko McBrain
Jon Lord

Early single. I am not too impressed but it's all early days:


TONY IOMMI, IAN GILLAN, JASON NEWSTED, NICKO MCBRAIN FORM “SUPER METAL” GROUP…NEW SMASHING PUMPKINS ALBUM…NEW THAT METAL SHOW EPISODE…ALTER BRIDGE LIVE ON JIMMY KIMMELL VIDEO. « Heavy Metal Messenger

Out of curiosity jh, what's your fav sabbath album?

That is really difficult to answer. I don't have one seriously. Master Of Reality probably. Into The Void and After Forever are immense but I like most of Sabotage too.

Master of Reality and Sabotage are probably my current favorites as well. The riffs on those two are just immense.

Faeries Wear Boots and A National Acrobat are huge faves too. Even Juniors Eyes from Never Say Die is immense too.

I do like Falling Off The Edge Of The World and Zero The Hero from the non Ozzy era too.

Man, everytime I watch "The Last Supper" i wanna kill whoever made that movie. Such great performances, ruined by the fact they have to place the dialouge in the middle of a song and not before or after... i hate that. That would of been a flawless video had they structured it better.

Also it is funny, everytime they should Geezer from behind or from the side, he looks like Kurt Cobain to me.


oh, another video for that... this still makes me laugh everytime... it is such a scary sounding song... but with the rainbows and ozzy's attire it is just so funny to me:


I am sure this is not the first time Ozzy has ever given the clap.