Burzum

Ronnie Jane Devo · 12-17-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Put simply, artists benefit from people listening to them - whether they spend money on their albums, spend money on concerts or other wares, spread the artists' popularity so that other people spend money/spread it further, listen to them on services like spotify so that they get higher ratings and make more cash, heighten their status as musician - such as praising his influence on black metal, etc etc etc.

Ask the opposite; how does listening to Burzum not support Vikernes? That's a harder question to answer, I think.

*facepalm*

I can understand not wanting to give money to Varg, but to suggest that his music should not even be heard or appreciated in an artistic sense is not only absurd but slightly fascistic as well. I love Richard Wagner's music but that does not make me a nazi. I love Rage Against the Machine but I have no desire to violently revolt against the government.

Art and politics are two different things; anyone with half a brain can understand this. To be opposed to allowing people to think independently about these things is in line with the most anti-democratic spirit of censorship, and I'm surprised to find someone I would think to be fairly well-educated and Internet-savvy holding such a view.

Guybrush · 12-18-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Jane Devo

*facepalm*

I can understand not wanting to give money to Varg, but to suggest that his music should not even be heard or appreciated in an artistic sense is not only absurd but slightly fascistic as well. I love Richard Wagner's music but that does not make me a nazi. I love Rage Against the Machine but I have no desire to violently revolt against the government.

Art and politics are two different things; anyone with half a brain can understand this. To be opposed to allowing people to think independently about these things is in line with the most anti-democratic spirit of censorship, and I'm surprised to find someone I would think to be fairly well-educated and Internet-savvy holding such a view.

You're surprised that I follow a moral principle where I try not to support nazi musicians - and you think that's slightly fascist. I don't agree. I don't think it should come as a surprise and since I'm not trying to force my opinion on others, I hardly think it's fascist.

I'm aware he's got fans who love him and I think people should have the freedom to do so - just like I have the freedom to choose who I want to listen to and why. To me, he's a racist and a murderer. For me, that has implications for whether or not I wanna listen to his music.

Ronnie Jane Devo · 12-20-2009, 11:48 PM

I find it strange that you seem to think it's wrong to listen to / appreciate Varg yet you also think people should have the freedom to do so. Personally I'd say what's immoral is actually buying into racist ideology, not simply giving money to someone who is a racist for reasons unrelated to their ideology. Making it possible for an extremist to have a speaking platform does not make you directly responsible for any idiocy on the part of other people who fall for the extremist's message.

That idiocy typically results from ignorance anyway, and the best way to fight ignorance is not censorship but open discussion of all points of view surrounding a topic. It's the same reason we don't believe in systematically wiretapping people and randomly searching their belongings just to prevent a few extra terrorist attacks. Therefore I think your concern over "funding Varg's activities", whatever they may be (if anything), is rather misguided.

Guybrush · 12-21-2009, 04:14 AM

I already told you I believe in the freedom of speech and choice. However, you seem to think that if you have freedom of speech, you have to support every person who uses it, regardless of the opinion they voice. Maybe respecting the freedom to be a racist while not supporting racism is too much of a contradiction in your mind, but it's not in mine. I like freedom and I think it's important to society - but that doesn't mean I like how everyone uses it.

Do you support artists and people you don't like?

~~CAPTAIN CAVEMAN~~ · 12-21-2009, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meph1986

Burzum - Discography - Official Releases - "Belus" 2010

that artwork is pitiful, it looks like some crappy point-and-shoot photo someone took and slapped some crappy font on in photoshop. i hope its a placeholder.

Ronnie Jane Devo · 12-21-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAPTAIN CAVEMAN

that artwork is pitiful, it looks like some crappy point-and-shoot photo someone took and slapped some crappy font on in photoshop. i hope its a placeholder.

Be thankful it's no longer this cover:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I already told you I believe in the freedom of speech and choice. However, you seem to think that if you have freedom of speech, you have to support every person who uses it, regardless of the opinion they voice. Maybe respecting the freedom to be a racist while not supporting racism is too much of a contradiction in your mind, but it's not in mine. I like freedom and I think it's important to society - but that doesn't mean I like how everyone uses it.

Do you support artists and people you don't like?

Not sure if this debate of ours is getting anywhere, but I'll get back to you when I have time for a more thorough response. Right now I have some snow to play in.

hip hop bunny hop · 12-21-2009, 10:05 AM

Tore, if you want to follow your logic to the end, don't listen to black metal, period. Quick, name a Black Metal band of worth which isn't either racist or highly influenced by a racist band.

....

I can't think of any.

Guybrush · 12-21-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

Tore, if you want to follow your logic to the end, don't listen to black metal, period. Quick, name a Black Metal band of worth which isn't either racist or highly influenced by a racist band.

I'm not talking about bands being influenced.

Varg set fire to various churches, he knife-killed a friend and he's an outspoken racist. I think the guy is an ass. Are you saying everyone in black metal kills their friends, are racists and set fire to churches? I don't think so.

Burzum is easy to ignore for me because of the crimes he did and the fact he's a one-man act and Burzum reflects Varg Vikernes and noone else. I don't like Varg so I don't like Burzum.

Now, can I not listen to Burzum in peace?

hip hop bunny hop · 12-21-2009, 03:04 PM

I'm not saying everyone in black metal is a jackass, but you stated just listening to Burzum is wrong as it increases the musics stature. I'm simply saying, doesn't listening to bands influenced by Burzum (or Dissection, Darkthrone, Order from Chaos, etc.) increase Burzum's stature as well?

Guybrush · 12-21-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

I'm not saying everyone in black metal is a jackass, but you stated just listening to Burzum is wrong as it increases the musics stature. I'm simply saying, doesn't listening to bands influenced by Burzum (or Dissection, Darkthrone, Order from Chaos, etc.) increase Burzum's stature as well?

Perhaps, but you know .. You can only take a moral principle so far before it gets ridiculous. Take for example "thou shalt not kill" - some people worry about stepping on ants. What you're suggesting - that according to my principle I cannot listen to any black metal at all - is dumb and I'm perfectly able to define myself how far I wanna stretch my moral principles without your help.

12-20-2009, 11:48 PM	#43 (permalink)
Ronnie Jane Devo moon shoes Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 57	I find it strange that you seem to think it's wrong to listen to / appreciate Varg yet you also think people should have the freedom to do so. Personally I'd say what's immoral is actually buying into racist ideology, not simply giving money to someone who is a racist for reasons unrelated to their ideology. Making it possible for an extremist to have a speaking platform does not make you directly responsible for any idiocy on the part of other people who fall for the extremist's message. That idiocy typically results from ignorance anyway, and the best way to fight ignorance is not censorship but open discussion of all points of view surrounding a topic. It's the same reason we don't believe in systematically wiretapping people and randomly searching their belongings just to prevent a few extra terrorist attacks. Therefore I think your concern over "funding Varg's activities", whatever they may be (if anything), is rather misguided. __________________ Last.fm

12-21-2009, 04:14 AM	#44 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I already told you I believe in the freedom of speech and choice. However, you seem to think that if you have freedom of speech, you have to support every person who uses it, regardless of the opinion they voice. Maybe respecting the freedom to be a racist while not supporting racism is too much of a contradiction in your mind, but it's not in mine. I like freedom and I think it's important to society - but that doesn't mean I like how everyone uses it. Do you support artists and people you don't like? __________________ Something Completely Different

12-21-2009, 10:05 AM	#47 (permalink)
hip hop bunny hop Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,381	Tore, if you want to follow your logic to the end, don't listen to black metal, period. Quick, name a Black Metal band of worth which isn't either racist or highly influenced by a racist band. .... I can't think of any.

12-21-2009, 03:04 PM	#49 (permalink)
hip hop bunny hop Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,381	I'm not saying everyone in black metal is a jackass, but you stated just listening to Burzum is wrong as it increases the musics stature. I'm simply saying, doesn't listening to bands influenced by Burzum (or Dissection, Darkthrone, Order from Chaos, etc.) increase Burzum's stature as well?