Their early stuff is hardcore and its on the "Venom & Tears" album that they really sound like Pantera and yes Dave Peters does sound like Phil Anselmo. Downside of the band, is that they can come across as just a copycat Pantera act. Just listen to the Day of the Dog song and don`t tell me that the chanting doesn`t sound like The Walk.

I`ve not heard yet the "Deathless" album yet, so can`t comment on that.

Haha what???

They aren't even in my top 20 favorite bands, but to call them mediocre is...silly.

Death isn't mainstream, so why would a mainstream magazine include it on one of its lists? Dimebag had an instantly recognizable style (making Pantera more popular than MB-rival Exhorder), and even though Schuldiner's innovations helped bring about death metal, death metal never took off with mainstream audiences (why would it?)

Death was mainstream during the time the lists were most made, what you talking about? They were on MTV, "The Philosopher" even made it onto Beavis and Butt-Head... that is mainstream... they along with Morbid Angel, Carcass and Entombed were bands in the style that everyone knew.. big following in the mid 90's, as a result of Headbangers Ball. The mainstream knew who Death were.. and Chuck was known to the MTV crowd.

I do not see who Pantera can be viewed of as anything but mediocre. A few good songs, and a whole lot of macho crap. "Far Beyond Driven" is to me just as loaded with cliches as the nu-metal it would inspire, and is just as creative.

But you said: When Exhorder or their fans scream that Pantera stole their sound its just sour grapes.

He still went, strongly, from a melodic style of singing to incorporating a style that was, shall we say, reminiscent of that employed by Exhorder?
I realize there are more important things than originality, and that Pantera did out Exhorder-Exhorder, but I remain troubled at how Pantera timed this switch in their style.

I think the difference in popularity may have something to do with the difference the mainstream in 1990 would react when picking up two different albums; one of which is entitled "Cowboys From Hell" and has a single with the same name, the other is called "Slaughter in the Vatican" and has "Anal Lust" as it's catchiest track.

Anal Lust is a really great song, though.

...and considering how attractive the band members were, it's surprising that they didn't get major rotation on radio, right?

I would still class Prong as one of the main progenitors of Groove Metal.

The argument regarding crossover has nothing to do with this thread really as the music combines 2 forms of music outside of the mainstream.

Death was mainstream within the metal community, but were not nearly as well known as Pantera. I'm talking 2 million albums versus 20 million albums sold. The term mainstream is used pretty loosely, but I would consider for something to be mainstream it would had to reach a mainstream audience. People may have been aware of Death, but was it frequently listened to? Compared to Pantera, no.

Nickelback = mainstream in all communities
Disturbed, Slipknot (others considered "mainstream") = mainstream within the metal community

People I am around everyday know that I am an avid Slipknot fan, and are aware of the band, but most of them listen to mainstream tunes (Lady Gaga, Chiddy Bang, Dave Matthews) or my more boring friends that are still stuck in the classic rock rut I escaped at age 10. They couldn't name a Slipknot song to save their lives, save for the ones that *shudder* appeared on Guitar Hero. I hear the words "scary" and "screamo" and "banging on drums" thrown around quite a bit, and that is pretty much the extent of their knowledge. In the same way, Pantera (somewhere between the success of a Nickelback and Death in terms of mainstream) were much more widely known, accepted, and listened to than Death. Death was only "mainstream" within a much smaller minority.

I guess I can see how you wouldn't like Pantera, but to call them mediocre is kind of a stretch.

Maybe not from a lyrical standpoint though lol

Yeah. Metal mainstream alright... still, when looked at that way, why not make mainstream metal magazines? not like I expect to see somebody like Chuck Schuldiner or Trey Azagthoth on the cover of Hit Parader or Rolling Stone... but I would expect to see them get their due respects in a metal magazine, which would be read by the metal mainstream you are talking about.

That's nothing, check out these lyrics... this could explain why Death Metal never went mainstream..:

Messiah - Extreme Cold Weather


With all my long hair, I don't need a hat to wear
Extreme cold weather is reigning outside,
the wind is blowing and the frost does bite.

I hope I won't freeze my toes off,
cause then I will have to cough
an icycle's hanging from my bum,
and there lies my neighbours frozen mum.

The thermometer's below zero,
don't try to be a hero
by running to scool
Now you're frozen dead you fool.

Extreme cold weather is freezing my blood,
I'd always have summer if I'd be god.
Now is april and you have thawed,
you won't step out again into the cold.

It's sunny, funny and really warm,
and my body feels like reborn.




----


wow...just wow.

Included video so you can hear I am not making these groundbreaking lyrics up.

Pantera are the bridge band that many people got into in the early 90's that had elements of heaviness and groove.

Unfortunately many fans thought they were rather crap (myself included) and they just happened to be a band around at the right time to appeal to newcomers and some older hardcore fans.

I am rather glad that some friends cannot name Slipknot song names because they are not memorable at all.

This is not necessarily a slight on Slipknot but more the general decline of Metal music around this time and lack of identity that is only now starting to be rebuilt.

I will always accept that Slipknot helped a whole slew of kids get into Metal but their longevity is almost nil and their contribution to the scene is virtually nil even 10 years after they first appeared.

Success is fleeting. Longevity and lasting appeal earns brownie points.