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-   -   Why such controversy on Nu Metal? (https://www.musicbanter.com/rock-metal/67349-why-such-controversy-nu-metal.html)

Forward To Death 01-12-2014 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambival (Post 1405326)
the same can be said about Slayer copying early Metallica, Ozzy Osbourne copying John lennon's image (glasses) and style in some songs (No more tears), Future Doom metal bands copying the sound of "Black Sabbath" song etc. That's the way the whole art goes. Sepultura stole korn's sound, korn stole primus's sound, primus stole (or rather mixed) Pink Floyd and Rush's sound. If what you do is a DIRECT (not modificated in any significant way) copy of something else, then (and only then) it's plagiarism. While Avenged Sevenfold's song "This Means War" may be considered a rip off of Metallica's "Sad But True", notably different riffs, melody and lyrics may affect such view. I still consider it as a typical "inspired" song.
What do you think the difference between plagiarism and influence is? To me, influence is in a nutshell, a similarity, or better yet a perceived similarity. It's very subjective, I could say Justin Bieber is influenced by Black Sabbath, hell I think Ke$ha cites them as one of her biggest influences. Plagiarism is something you can actually argue based on quantifiable facts.

Godsmack made a song called "Love, Hate, Sex, Pain", and contains the exact same melody as "Love, Hate, Love", while Alice In Chains themselves have released a song with the lyrics "sex and pain", that's a fact. Godsmack has a logo with a sun, like Alice In Chains, that's a fact. Godsmack is the name of an Alice In Chains song, that's a fact. Godsmack has an album titled Faceless that features a face emerging from a background, Alice In Chains has an album titled Facelift that features a face emerging from a background, these are all facts. I guess whether it's actually similar enough to be considered "plagiarism" is subjective, so it's really up to you whether you consider it that or not. I think by legal definition, at least the melody lifting and song lyrics could definitely be.

Sound is not a fact, I guess a 7-string guitar is a fact, but what does that have to do with plagiarism? Does anyone who plays a 7-string or downtuned guitar owe royalties to Korn?

Ambival 01-12-2014 05:41 PM
Not at all, apart from downtuned guitar, in examples I mentioned above there was groove and emotional lyrics. As you said, by legal definition only melody and lyrics could be a subject of plagiarism. Just compare Slayer's dittohead (second riff) to the main riff of Machine head's bulldozer. I think the best example of plagiarism is "Tier" by Rammstein.

Forward To Death 01-12-2014 06:05 PM
Yeah, there's plenty of plagiarism in music dude, the point was that Godsmack has made a career out of it.

Norg 01-13-2014 08:58 PM
in the song Helmet in a Bush KOrn uses a Sample of a tape recorder rewinding and a click sample

also on some drum parts they used a 808 electronic Pad

and this was just on there first record has they said dabbled with electronics


and in korns own words early on they were simply trying to Mix the groove and bass of " gangsta rap" with the Rock that they were doing .... yup

Primeval Scum 01-17-2014 06:54 PM
Korn's "Ball Tongue" rips of Morbid Angel. I still love that song and album though.

Nu metal is often scorned because it became very stale and derivative. Too many of the bands were doing the same exact thing and trying to take advantage of the trend. So it fell out of favor.

Plus "nu metal" is a misnomer, since it isn't actually a type of metal.

Necromancer 01-21-2014 12:08 PM
There are sometimes drastic separation between all the differet styles and sounds in this genre, it doesn't seem to make much sense at times.

Necro 08-21-2014 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambival (Post 1403211)
As a big fan of Nu metal, I wanted to state some things. As said before, Nu metal mix variety of different sounds. Because of that people have problems with familiarizing with the genre and I think that is the source of all the hate (except for its popularity between 1995 and 2005). Some say industrial, grunge or hip hop elements are the main traits of the genre, but quite frankly they are not. Usually Nu bands referred to those genres have also another label attached to it, that is Industrial metal, Rap metal etc. The variety of sounds in nu metal (and thus variety of bands - Slipknot, Evanescence, Soulfly, Para roach, System of a down. You may think they are uncomparable, labeling them all "nu metal" sounds like an insult) comes from the flexibility of three main, unarguable elements:
- simplicity - The biggest problem for metal purist. Metal should be brutally technical, with mind blowing solos and complex structures,but at the same time we have Black Sabbath's Paranoid, Megadeth's symphony of destruction and Judas Priest's Breaking the law. In Nu metal simplicity referres to its classic structure and easy riffs, but there is no rule. If you want more complex sound then you can have it (Slipknot's Skin Ticket and Disasterpieces, Otep's Bloody Pigs and TRIC etc.)
- Emphasis on rhythm - has much in common with simplicity, as all the greatest riffs in nu metal are more rhythm than melody oriented (Slipknot's Duality and (SIC), Korn's ***et etc.)
- Groove - The most important and obvious element of Nu metal. ALL Nu metal bands have groove in their sounds (although some mix it with headbanging speed, like in case of Slipknot's debut). This made Nu metal a derivative form of Groove metal. Both are groovy, but Groove metal is more technical.

The basic inspirations for Nu metal are Groove, Funk and Hip hop, because of their Groove. DJ's presence and rapping arethere only to strengthen the Groove, but they don't make the Genre, same with Industrial, Grunge (this one is there only for it's simplicity and angst in lyrics), hardcore punk and some others. The perfect example for Nu metal is the album that created the genre - Korn's debut. Lack of DJ's work, rapping or industrial and music critics still consider it the most "pure" of nu metal albums.

Coming back to the variety of bands. There is a big misunderstaning about which bands are Nu metal. Quite frankly, in terms of Purity, there is only ONE Nu metal band in the world - KoRn. All the others are more or less Nu metal, mixing the genre with some other elements (Slipknot/Otep - thrash and Death metal, Limp Bizkit/LinkinPark - Rap metal, Dope/Static X/Spineshank - industrial, Coal Chamber/Evanescence - gothic metal, Staind/Godsmack - post-grunge, System of a down - some-crazy-**** for sure) or simply making a Nu metal debut and then moving on a completely new territory (Debuts of Disturbed, Chimaira, Kittie, Deftones's Adrenaline and Around the fur).

Thank you for your attention.
I know im being late on this thread, but this topic is interesting to me.
I should say i agree with you on the 2 traits of nu-metal, id just like to add that i also consider hardcore a major influence on nu-metal, heck id even consider nu-metal a remote subgenre of hardcore, since both are groove based but too simple/different to be called groove metal, so that leaves hardcore as the only heavy groove based genre that nu-metal can fit in. Cos admit it, its not rock, nor hard rock, nor hip hop, the guitars are too different, theres no blues/pentatonic bases tonality in songs and the vocal styles/screams are reminiscent of hardcore too.

Also, as a side note, i dont get how nu-metal being too simple is a problem for people, if anything it makes them sound hypocritical, cos those same people also happen to like ****in Beatles and if you hear a Beatles song with technical shredding and face-ripping riffs let me know.
And in general, this nu-metal-hate argument reveals a lot of hypocritical straw-man bull**** in that, the things those people criticise in nu-metal, i can find them in their favorite genres.
And nu-metal isnt my fav genre, neither in heavy music, nor in general, just sayin'.

Norg 08-21-2014 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necro (Post 1480892)
I know im being late on this thread, but this topic is interesting to me.
I should say i agree with you on the 2 traits of nu-metal, id just like to add that i also consider hardcore a major influence on nu-metal, heck id even consider nu-metal a remote subgenre of hardcore, since both are groove based but too simple/different to be called groove metal, so that leaves hardcore as the only heavy groove based genre that nu-metal can fit in. Cos admit it, its not rock, nor hard rock, nor hip hop, the guitars are too different, theres no blues/pentatonic bases tonality in songs and the vocal styles/screams are reminiscent of hardcore too.

Also, as a side note, i dont get how nu-metal being too simple is a problem for people, if anything it makes them sound hypocritical, cos those same people also happen to like ****in Beatles and if you hear a Beatles song with technical shredding and face-ripping riffs let me know.
And in general, this nu-metal-hate argument reveals a lot of hypocritical straw-man bull**** in that, the things those people criticise in nu-metal, i can find them in their favorite genres.
And nu-metal isnt my fav genre, neither in heavy music, nor in general, just sayin'.
uhhh u know Hardcore came out in like 2003 a little bit after Nu metal .....

unless your talking about bands like

Cro mags
bad brains
GG allen
etc etc etc

that came out around uhh 1988-1993 and most of those bands were from the East coast NY area and flordia milleesss away from califorina and KORN

and besides korn members were big into the hole LA scene when they were teens givin the close proximnty to them

so Hardcore of the early 90's had no effect on nu metal

Dylstew 08-21-2014 01:15 PM
There's one Nu Metal band I really love.
Maximum the hormone. It's Alternative Metal/Nu Metal/ mixed with Funk Metal and modern Pop punk.They also made a few third wave ska songs. They have a male and female singer.
The Nu Metal/Alternative Metal part is like System of a Down on crack, The Funk Metal/Rap Metal part is like early Red Hot Chili Peppers on crack, and then there's also the pop/pop punk parts. Oh, and they're Japanese.
They're really silly and don't take themselves too seriously.

I love it, for the most part. I know them the way most western people know them: Death Note Opening 2.

other than that there's System of a down I like. They're more Alternative Metal than nu metal though, but I think it still counts.

Norg 08-21-2014 01:23 PM
real NU metal u cant classifiy cus real NU metal= Music its just music LOL


that's why people are butt hurt LOL

The Batlord 08-21-2014 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norg (Post 1480921)
uhhh u know Hardcore came out in like 2003 a little bit after Nu metal .....

unless your talking about bands like

Cro mags
bad brains
GG allen
etc etc etc

that came out around uhh 1988-1993 and most of those bands were from the East coast NY area and flordia milleesss away from califorina and KORN

and besides korn members were big into the hole LA scene when they were teens givin the close proximnty to them

so Hardcore of the early 90's had no effect on nu metal
https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/im...5944536602.jpg

Dylstew 08-21-2014 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1480933)
His comment confused the **** out of me.
Hardcore Punk was an 80's thing, what the hell is he talking about?

Necro 08-21-2014 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norg (Post 1480921)
uhhh u know Hardcore came out in like 2003 a little bit after Nu metal .....

unless your talking about bands like

Cro mags
bad brains
GG allen
etc etc etc

that came out around uhh 1988-1993 and most of those bands were from the East coast NY area and flordia milleesss away from califorina and KORN

and besides korn members were big into the hole LA scene when they were teens givin the close proximnty to them

so Hardcore of the early 90's had no effect on nu metal
Even though the genre broke through around 2003, there were heavy hardcore bands all along since 90s, and even though they didnt influence nu-metal much, in retrospect, you could argue nu-metal fits into that sound much better than in anything else.

The Batlord 08-21-2014 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylstew (Post 1480935)
His comment confused the **** out of me.
Hardcore Punk was an 80's thing, what the hell is he talking about?
Naw, man. Black Flag is a myth.

Black Francis 08-21-2014 02:40 PM
im no nu metal historian but didn't nu metal start around the mid 90's?
i remember listening to 'life is peachy' by Korn around 96 or 97


Necro 08-21-2014 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Francis (Post 1480943)
im no nu metal historian but didn't nu metal start around the mid 90's?
i remember listening to 'life is peachy' by Korn around 96 or 97

If youre referring to my post, i was talking about hardcore/metalcore breaking through in 2003, not nu-metal.

Dylstew 08-22-2014 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necro (Post 1480940)
Even though the genre broke through around 2003, there were heavy hardcore bands all along since 90s, and even though they didnt influence nu-metal much, in retrospect, you could argue nu-metal fits into that sound much better than in anything else.
''Heavy hardcore bands all along in the nineties'' What?
Hardcore Punk is primarily an 80's thing dude.
Minor Threat, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, MDC, Discharge, that Dead Kennedys EP, Verbal Abuse, The F.U's, Negative Approach, Negative FX, Poison Idea, Gang Green, Government Issue, D.R.I, Battillion of Saints, D.O.A, Agnostic Front, etc.

It's not a nineties thing at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1480941)
Naw, man. Black Flag is a myth.
Yeah, Black Flag Didn't exist, only Off and Flag exist, and those were totally new and original ideas. hmm hmm, I should know, I'm an expert.

Necro 08-22-2014 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylstew (Post 1481061)
''Heavy hardcore bands all along in the nineties'' What?
Hardcore Punk is primarily an 80's thing dude.
Minor Threat, Bad Brains, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, MDC, Discharge, that Dead Kennedys EP, Verbal Abuse, The F.U's, Negative Approach, Negative FX, Poison Idea, Gang Green, Government Issue, D.R.I, Battillion of Saints, D.O.A, Agnostic Front, etc.

It's not a nineties thing at all.


Yeah, Black Flag Didn't exist, only Off and Flag exist, and those were totally new and original ideas. hmm hmm, I should know, I'm an expert.
Im talking stuff like Hatebreed, Biohazard, Converge, Luti-Kriss, etc.

Dylstew 08-22-2014 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necro (Post 1481081)
Im talking stuff like Hatebreed, Biohazard, Converge, Luti-Kriss, etc.
Those are not even straight up Hardcore Punk bands.
Come on man, Hardcore Punk started in the 80's, and that was it's most important time period.
Modern hardcore has a very different sound. I'm not saying it's not hardcore, but hardcore punk is without a doubt an 80's thing.

''uhhh u know Hardcore came out in like 2003 a little bit after Nu metal .....

unless your talking about bands like Cro mags bad brains ''

Unless? Bad brains is one of the original hardcore punk bands? Why the unless?
And cro-mags is crossover thrash, hardcore punk mixed with thrash metal.

CoNtrivedNiHilism 08-22-2014 07:13 AM
Not to derail this, because I've been reading this back and forth between two, but...

This is the nu-metal I listened to back in the 2000's, early 2000's I mean. My favorite nu-metal band from that period, some of the best writing as far as nu-metal goes. From the riffs, bass, drumming, singing. It's great stuff. Take a listen. This is the **** I think should have gotten the attention over Linkin Park and their debut album Hybrid Theory. Simon Says was more competent as far as song writing goes. Strong stuff. For the people that listened to Simon Says. They were known for their big choruses. But everything about them was great in my opinion. Listen to that chorus in Dyslexic Smile. Not your typical nu-metal lyrics. I never thought this band wrote in the same way as their peers did. Smarter.

And take a guess who their drummer was? Pretty well respected drummer.











Maybe you can dig'em, or maybe not.

Dylstew 08-22-2014 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascended.us (Post 1481169)
I'm pretty sure there is a lot of controversy over all genres. This is because to some degree, genres appeal specifically to certain kinds of people. Personally, I like the best from every genre. Some more than others of course!
Nah, there's way more controversy over Nu Metal. Do you see controversy over Thrash Metal, Black Metal, Crossover Thrash, or Heavy Metal? No. Do you see controversy over Hair/Glam Metal, Nu Metal and Bad Metalcore bands, Yes. There's always a few sub genres with controversy, but it's not there for most.

The Batlord 08-22-2014 11:15 AM
Hair/Glam Metal >>>>> Nu Metal and Bad Metalcore bands.

Necromancer 08-22-2014 12:16 PM
I don't quite understand the logic behind hating a particular music genre that is inspired by creativity for a new sound and style.

Dylstew 08-22-2014 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1481188)
Hair/Glam Metal >>>>> Nu Metal and Bad Metalcore bands.
I agree.

Necromancer 08-22-2014 02:15 PM
A lot of the controversy comes from the simple fact that popular heavy metal bands like Black Sabbath (for example) might sale 1 or 2 million albums. Then comes along a band like Linkin Park that might sell an estimated 60 million.

Its always the music industry.
You have to feed the machine.

The Batlord 08-22-2014 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylstew (Post 1481235)
I agree.
I'd just like to point out that I'm not choosing the lesser of two evils. Even the derivative, self-parody bands were fun, and the actual good bands could be as good as many other bands that people mindlessly hold up on pedestals. Somebody tell me how Motley Crue's first two album's, and Dr. Feelgood tbh, weren't a match for anything AC/DC ever put out. Yet if I said it in a bar full of classic rock fans I'd probably be booed all the way to the street.

Necromancer 08-22-2014 03:14 PM
If you were in a room full of classic rock musicians, they would all more than likely agree with you Batlord, concerning Motley Crue and AC/DC.

Badlands was one of my favorite heavy metal bands and album coming out of the 80s and into the 90s.

I always thought that their sound and style more resembled Led Zeppelin more so than Soundgarden ever did. Especially the single on their opening track High Wire.

Just thought to mention...

Norg 08-23-2014 01:00 AM
I think he was trying to tie in hardcore music to Nu metal I see it now but back in 1995-00 I just didn't see it

I was always under the impression korn was influenced by bands like


Faith no more
Helmet
Rage agansit the machine
Chilli peppers
and Hip hop

HellCell 08-23-2014 01:20 AM
Without reading any of the comments I'll say. I don't see why it's hated other than slightly unoriginal sounding (combining genres with alternative rock with rap/electronic) and that it's a post Gen X thing? You know how the last generation always likes to knock on the new one. Maybe it's a bit selloutish too..

Personally I can see myself listening to Nu Metal just fine.

HellCell 08-23-2014 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1481188)
Hair/Glam Metal >>>>> Nu Metal and Bad Metalcore bands.
With the word good in place of bad...
The reverse for me.

CoNtrivedNiHilism 08-23-2014 01:42 AM
I don't really care if people pick on me here over liking nu-metal. Fight the power!

Dylstew 08-23-2014 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascended.us (Post 1481260)
To say there is more controversy over Nu Metal is silly. I mean, look at the comments in the Skrillex videos, for example. Look at Rap. Constant flame wars. Look at Beiber, look at emo. It's a common issue when you have niche music.
Real emo is not controversial at all btw, people just seem to call bands emo that aren't emo these days.

Anyways, what you mentioned are really big artists that get a lot of hate from many music fans. But those are artists specifically. What I mean with a controversial sub genre, I mean one where the fans of the genre it comes from tend to hate on. In this case, Metal fans tend to hate on Nu Metal and bad Metalcore bands a lot.

Puffnstuff 08-23-2014 03:10 AM
I think that people should just appreciate the music for what it is and not get so caught up in the particular genre if it speaks to you and you can enjoy it in the first place.

Necro 08-24-2014 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylstew (Post 1481138)
Those are not even straight up Hardcore Punk bands.
Come on man, Hardcore Punk started in the 80's, and that was it's most important time period.
Modern hardcore has a very different sound. I'm not saying it's not hardcore, but hardcore punk is without a doubt an 80's thing.

''uhhh u know Hardcore came out in like 2003 a little bit after Nu metal .....

unless your talking about bands like Cro mags bad brains ''

Unless? Bad brains is one of the original hardcore punk bands? Why the unless?
And cro-mags is crossover thrash, hardcore punk mixed with thrash metal.
Again, i didnt mean only hardcore punk, but new hardcore too, i wouldnt call thos ebands metalcore because theres not much metal in them, metalcore would be something like Unearth or early Trivium.
So the similarity between nu-metal and that kind of hardcore is that both genres are based on bouncy groove riffs and dark melodies but dont have the complexity of actual metal in the riffs or crazy-fast intense drums.

Necro 08-24-2014 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascended.us (Post 1481622)
Yep. Whenever you have those commercial big label bands, for example: Korn, Limp Bizkit, and Linkin Park, a team of marketing experts take some creative control over the projects. You can expect some overproduction and simple easy to digest music. The record labels find bands that align with what they think will make them the most money. Nu Metal is probably one of those genres. They find some kids off the street with a laptop and little natural talent, and they get em to sign over. They inflate the newly popular artist's value through intense radio play, special fx, and massive promotional campaigns. They're essentially average musicians who play and sing superficial lyrics with those same old themes about hating, being hated, and being crazy, which explains where a lot of the hate/controversy comes from.

For example, look at the lyrics from Never Never.
[Verse 1:]
I don't ever wanna have to try.
Though I lie, It never flies.
I don't ever wanna have to die.
But deep inside, The death it hides.
And I never wanna clarify and justify so I run and hide.
And I never wanna signify so I pacify all the hate inside.

But really, though. Don't get me wrong! I enjoy some of these songs, although at the same time, I do recognize like many others do that they are essentially just simple songs with negative lyrics.
And Beatles were simple songs with positive lyrics. If compositional simplicity is enough grounds to discredit a genre than most of those "classic" rock bands are bad and dont hold up against anything half-complex.
Plus you used a song from 2013 which is neither nu-metal nor represents the primary lifespan of the genre.
And id rather have nu-metal 24/7 on TV than the total bull**** that passes for rock music thats airing instead.

Necromancer 08-24-2014 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necro (Post 1481640)
And Beatles were simple songs with positive lyrics. If compositional simplicity is enough grounds to discredit a genre than most of those "classic" rock bands are bad and dont hold up against anything half-complex.
Plus you used a song from 2013 which is neither nu-metal nor represents the primary lifespan of the genre.
And id rather have nu-metal 24/7 on TV than the total bull**** that passes for rock music thats airing instead.
I agree, art simplicity can be just as creative as something that is technical. Good insight Necro.

Necro 08-24-2014 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necromancer (Post 1481644)
I agree, art simplicity can be just as creative as something that is technical. Good insight Necro.
Thanks but now, i wasnt necessarily defending simplicity, and songs being too boring and simple is part of the reason i was bashing on current rock. Granted, nu-metal is simpler in comparison to actual metal, but it still offered something in the groove rhythm section and riffs that even though simple, were unique to the genre.
Theres a respective level of complexity for every type of guitar music thats just enough and guarantees that the song isnt boring at the very least.

Necromancer 08-24-2014 04:51 PM
There's a few modern alternative bands out that I don't mind listening to.
Avatar has a unique stage presentation. Bloody Angel is their more mainstream single. Then there is Smells Like A Freakshow, which is mainstream friendly.
My personal favorite is Torn Apart, especially the glitched video effects. Their music defines simplicity in a big way, if you listen to them you'll see what I mean.

Musicfanatic 08-24-2014 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necro (Post 1480892)
heck id even consider nu-metal a remote subgenre of hardcore
I don't know much about hardcore, but what I do know is that I think you might have a point. Some nu-metal is angst ridden, plus very screamy, and I do believe that that was some of what hardcore was about. Correct me if I'm wrong, any hardcore fans.

Quote:
Also, as a side note, i dont get how nu-metal being too simple is a problem for people, if anything it makes them sound hypocritical, cos those same people also happen to like ****in Beatles and if you hear a Beatles song with technical shredding and face-ripping riffs let me know.
Never heard of Revolution, or Helter Skelter? Both are pretty heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1480941)
Naw, man. Black Flag is a myth.
That's hardcore? I bought My War by them. Is that still in the style? Is the Damned hardcore, or just punk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylstew (Post 1481185)
Nah, there's way more controversy over Nu Metal. Do you see controversy over Thrash Metal, Black Metal
No to black metal? I think those church burnings across the lake were kind of controversial, and it had to do with black metal being taken too far...

Quote:
Do you see controversy over Hair/Glam Metal
Um, some, so yes.

Necro 08-25-2014 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicfanatic (Post 1481844)
Never heard of Revolution, or Helter Skelter? Both are pretty heavy.
None of those are heavy or contain shredding, certainly not by todays standards.

Black Flag is hardcore punk, but the hardcore i was referring to are the modern bands with metallic sound.


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