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Old 11-16-2017, 05:03 PM   #41 (permalink)
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In the Rwandan genocide the government handed out machetes to the Hutu populace and expected them to contribute, and they did, without resistance or complaint. That's one reason why the death toll was so quick so soon, because there was no escape for the Tutsis with the enemy being next door. The massacre wasn't carried out just by death squads, but by people just like you and me who'd been conditioned to hate, which is something that humanity as a whole is very easily conditioned to do. The human race is tribalistic by nature, and it doesn't really take much to bring it out. Basically just not having a comfortable lifestyle is enough to make people take their frustrations out on an outsider group, so long as it's easy, because they have different color skin, or a different religion, or simply a history of being seen as different. Just look at America with Trump and Hispanics, or Europe with Muslims. Just how different would it be if Europe wasn't such a comfortable, 1st world place to live in? How accepting do you think your country would be? How many would die?

How much did it take the Germans to take their frustrations out on the Jews? How much did it take to let the Jews be the scapegoats? How much did it take for the majority of Germans to turn their heads away from what they knew was happening and go about their lives as if nothing was happening because it was simply easier than doing something about it? That's the real issue. Not that some Germans killed a bunch of Jews, but that the majority of Germans didn't care enough to do anything about it. People simply don't care enough to try to stop genocide if it's too hard. Or if it's hard at all. Or simply if the people in charge say "do it" when they can make a case for it that jibes with some narrative that seems plausibe. That's honestly all that's needed to change civilization to barbarism, because ultimately the difference is imaginary.

And no country is different. Under the right conditions, nearly every single human on Earth could be so callous and indifferent. We might sing to our children and sing Christmas carols and give to charity, but nearly all of those same people could look the other way in the face of state sanctioned murder because it's simply difficult to do otherwise. There's a quote from a Holocaust survivor that I think sums up the human race pretty well, "This world is not this world." The human race and its civilization is simply a front to pretend that we are not simply animals capable of monstrosity at the drop of a hat the same as any animal.

Still happy?
I basically agree with you, except I don't want to diminish the value of the human will towards something better.

A about a week ago, I attended a public meeting where candidates for the upcoming city council election presented their political platform. In a room of 95% white, christian or atheist "natives" like me, there was overwhelmingly one sided "booing" whenever a particular candidate went on about how muslims were the root of all evil. It's not that I don't see problems with radical Islam, but it was heartwarming to see such overwhelming resistance against attempts to stir animosity against a group of immigrants in our country.

On the other hand, I know that there's some of that darkness in all of us. I ****ing hate that Spielberg movie, Schindler's List - but I hate it exactly because it makes the villains seem so different from us. It gives us this easy boogeyman, which is this cartoonishly evil Nazi stereotype, when in reality, there's depressingly little difference between most of the soldiers who served at the side of Nazi Germany and of us 'regular' movie watching pundits. Despite all this, I think there's reason to insist on the good sides of human beings. To at least aspire to be one of the good guys, even if you might ultimately fail to be so...
Also, in case you haven't, the graphic novel Maus is absolutely required reading for anyone who appreciates that medium - and really anyone who dares to look deep inside the human spirit in a way that's not as black & white as Schindler's List.

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Old 11-16-2017, 06:28 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I basically agree with you, except I don't want to diminish the value of the human will towards something better.

A about a week ago, I attended a public meeting where candidates for the upcoming city council election presentes their political platform. I a room of 95% white, christian or atheist "natives" like me, there was overwhelmingly one sided "booing" whenever a particular candidate sent on about how muslims were the root of all evil. It's not that I don't see problems with radical Islam, but it was heartwarming to see such overwhelming resistance against attempts to stir animosity against a group of immigrants in our country.

On the other hand, I know that there's some of that darkness in all of us. I ****ing hate that Spielberg movie, Schindler's List - but I hate it exactly because it makes the villains seem so different from us. It gives us this easy boogeyman, which is this cartoonishly evil Nazi stereotype, when in reality, there's depressingly little difference between most of the soldiers who served at the side of Nazi Germany and of us 'regular' movie watching pundits. Despite all this, I think there's reason to insist on the good sides of human beings. To at least aspire to be one of the good guys, even if you might ultimately fail to be so...
Also, in case you haven't, the graphic novel Maus is absolutely required reading for anyone who appreciates that medium - and really anyone who dares to look deep inside the human spirit in a way that's not as black & white as Schindler's List.
I mean I totally agree with that, that humanity can very much work together and not be tribalistic. But what happens when you're not living in a post-scarcity, Western society? What happens when the human race REALLY meats the balls to the wall? Do you think we DON'T become so tribalistic?

And even that isn't so awful when you consider how far we've come. Thousands of years past the time when tribalism was the law of the land everywhere every day all day 365 days a year, we really have come a distance that you'd have to actively ignore to pretend hasn't happened. But the question is just how much is that progress worth in 2017? It's probably worth more than it was a thousand years ago. And worth more than that two thousand years ago. But how much is it actually worth right the **** now? With genocide still a very going concern? Just how unmurderous is the human race?

Do we have the amount of cooperation necessary to deal with very ****ing immediate concerns like global warming? Even people from the same country can't agree that manmade global warming is even a thing, and I doubt that people from different countries across the globe can, or what is to be done about it, or that even anything should be done about it.

And even if we can, nuclear war has kind of become a joke after the Soviet Union collapsed, but... we all still have ****ing nuclear weapons and all still talk **** to each other at the drop of a hat. At some point someone is going to say one thing to far or someone is going to be just a tad too crazy, and then... what?


And all of this is in the most general sense. Hutus killed Tutsis for... what? Turks killed Armenians for... what? Whites enslaved blacks for... what? Just how much suffering is the human race capable of inflicting upon each other? I'd ask if you could quantify it but clearly you can't. We could say that the human race is advancing, and we are, but what happens if modern society takes a nose dive and we return to barbarism? Does all of our progress come with us? Or does it all die with our society, and barbarism truly return with all of the death and genocide that it will inevitably bring? Is all of this pretty progress just a comfortable illusion to believe in because we have the money to keep it going?
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:37 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I mean I totally agree with that, that humanity can very much work together and not be tribalistic. But what happens when you're not living in a post-scarcity, Western society? What happens when the human race REALLY meats the balls to the wall? Do you think we DON'T become so tribalistic?

And even that isn't so awful when you consider how far we've come. Thousands of years past the time when tribalism was the law of the land everywhere every day all day 365 days a year, we really have come a distance that you'd have to actively ignore to pretend hasn't happened. But the question is just how much is that progress worth in 2017? It's probably worth more than it was a thousand years ago. And worth more than that two thousand years ago. But how much is it actually worth right the **** now? With genocide still a very going concern? Just how unmurderous is the human race?

Do we have the amount of cooperation necessary to deal with very ****ing immediate concerns like global warming? Even people from the same country can't agree that manmade global warming is even a thing, and I doubt that people from different countries across the globe can, or what is to be done about it, or that even anything should be done about it.

And even if we can, nuclear war has kind of become a joke after the Soviet Union collapsed, but... we all still have ****ing nuclear weapons and all still talk **** to each other at the drop of a hat. At some point someone is going to say one thing to far or someone is going to be just a tad too crazy, and then... what?


And all of this is in the most general sense. Hutus killed Tutsis for... what? Turks killed Armenians for... what? Whites enslaved blacks for... what? Just how much suffering is the human race capable of inflicting upon each other? I'd ask if you could quantify it but clearly you can't. We could say that the human race is advancing, and we are, but what happens if modern society takes a nose dive and we return to barbarism? Does all of our progress come with us? Or does it all die with our society, and barbarism truly return with all of the death and genocide that it will inevitably bring? Is all of this pretty progress just a comfortable illusion to believe in because we have the money to keep it going?
I think all of that is still in us and it always will be. That's exactly why art is so important. Escapism is fine, but we also can't afford to pretend that we're not always balancing on a knife's edge. I have my sincerest doubts that we will manage to do **** all about global warming and I know that genocide isn't ever going to be a thing of the past, but human impulses to resists all the worst of our specieas this have endured through time, and that's what I cling to. I know that there will always be people who will choose the better path - even if they're a minority - and I know that we've got this amazing capacity for empathy and self sacrifice. I'm not saying it's easy to see the good sides of our species, but I think it's necessary to try. Otherwise, just what are we left with?
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Old 11-16-2017, 06:57 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Not sure why I kept all that going in a Judas Priest thread, but I guess I was just bored, and **** it if don't believe in a lot of it, but **** it this is Judas Priest and I'd rather listen to "Jugulator" than worry about who the human race is going to butcher next I suppose. I believe we're a very impressive species, even if I don't know if we have the capacity to go forward beyond where we are now, or far enough beyond a hundred or a thousand years from now to not stagnate into a hellish species who end up destroying themselves because evolution can only do so much.
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Old 11-16-2017, 07:14 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Under the right conditions, nearly every single human on Earth could be so callous and indifferent.
Under the right conditions?

Got any qualifiers?
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Old 11-16-2017, 07:24 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Under the right conditions?

Got any qualifiers?
Germany had a population of 63 million in 1933 after a quick Google search. Do you think America is genetically superior to Germany? 63 million is a pretty good statistical representation of the human race, and as of a decade later even more Germans did nothing during the Holocaust, so I'd say that unless you consider the German people in the 30s and 40s to be genetically inferior to everyone else that it's a pretty good indicator that humanity in general is perfectly capable of ignoring genocide, more or less as the entirety of a whole.
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:03 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Germany had a population of 63 million in 1933. Do you think America is genetically superior to Germany?
America in 2017 vs. Germany in 1933? Hell ya. That Germany was state run. What little news the population was fed was 100% propaganda, most of it being anti-Semite and pro Aryan purification and dominance.

In 1933 Jews made up less than 1% of the German population. Pretty easy to brainwash 99.25% of the population that those 0.75% of Jews are a stain on your country's heritage and destiny. Especially with the threat of the Gestapo lurking around every corner ready to erase any public signs of dissent.

2017 America is light years removed from that. We have 10X times more free news than we'd ever need in a 24 hour day between TV and the internet.
And demographically speaking we're beyond the point of being so diverse that no single ethnic or ideological group can take over the vast majority of the narrative.

The tea party and then, the wonder bread white Trump movement have tried and have failed miserably - and have actually emboldened the dissenters in the process.

84 years of hindsight, and technology will have that effect on any first world nation.
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Old 11-16-2017, 09:08 PM   #48 (permalink)
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That arrogance is ****ing dangerous.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:14 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Be specific.

Comment point by point.

- 2017 free (albeit, highly partisan - but all sides represented) news vs. 1933 state run news extolling only one view - and we'll kill you if you disagree
- 1933 German demographics vs. 2017 US demographics
- 2017 a finger tap away information technology - 24/7 vs. 1933......
- 2017 first world civilized and governed nations vs. 3rd world tribal nations ruled by dictators and 100% military authority

Is 2017 US ****ed up? YES. Are we almost a century removed from the barbaric ideology that fueled a xenophobic national movement in Germany? **** YES.

Please point out the arrogance.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:17 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Be specific.

Comment point by point.

- 2017 free (albeit, highly partisan - but all sides represented) news vs. 1933 state run news extolling only one view - and we'll kill you if you disagree
- 1933 German demographics vs. 2017 US demographics
- 2017 a finger tap away information technology - 24/7 vs. 1933......
- 2017 first world civilized and governed nations vs. 3rd world tribal nations ruled by dictators and 100% military authority

Is 2017 US ****ed up? YES. Are we almost a century removed from the barbaric ideology that fueled a xenophobic national movement in Germany? **** YES.

Please point out the arrogance.
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