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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
Absolutely not, that's why I said it was a joint effort, and never said that Elvis was a rock pioneer. I think there's a good argument for it.
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I think it was a joint effort in
popularizing it but I still stand firm that African Americans were the original pioneers
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
And you're incorrect, as I've stated, and backed up. Either prove it or get off of it with your whiney tirades against white people in music stealing from black people. Like I said, say until you're blue in the face, that's an opinion.
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No I am not going to shut up about it because it is apart of music history and anybody is a fool to deny that part of music history. It is so easy for people of the different persuasion to speak on matters and experiences that they never had to endure themselves. They want people to keep quiet about it because those issues do not affect them. I am not going to keep quiet about it because I am tired of the discrimination legendary black artists receive. Its not an opinion, it is a fact. It is a fact that white labels sought out unsigned black artists, took their songs and gave it to major white artists. It is a fact that black artists did not have the same opportunities as white artists during the civil rights and Jim crow eras.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
And so do black people. Again with the subjective opinions. Come up with something FACTUAL. Come up with something OBJECTIVE.
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I never said that black people don't steal either but during that particular era it was more common for major labels from ANY genre to scout unsigned black artists and even the black artists that were signed. They would listen to their demos that were deemed potential hits and pick the ones they wanted to have for their major white artists on their major labels. That is why you have two versions of the same songs by white major artists and one by a black artist or unknown one from those eras. I am not saying this is the case for EVERY single white artist during this era but it was MOST common during this era and especially in the rock n roll genre.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
The artists that you're saying are the "KANGS" also "stole" from other artists, white and black, who were doing it before they were. I can respect every single one of your opinions if you treat it like an opinion, and don't pass it off as a valid reasoning for why you think Elvis shouldn't be considered The King.
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Okay, where are the songs that they stole?
Where are the writing credits that they stole?
Where did they steal their dance moves and performance style from?
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
Elvis was a more impactful "player" on the music industry than anyone else, that includes other white people. The fact that you think that he wasn't as great a performer as others doesn't change the fact that he had a talented band and group of songwriters around him, and was involved in some of the most recognizable songs in rock n roll history. Whether you like it or not, he was more impactful on rock than Chuck Berry, Little Richard, you name it, Elvis was a bigger deal, and was making "rock" before the others you've mentioned so far.
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When did I deny Elvis impact? I have consistently said that he is an icon and is the most successful artist of his genre. I just think he gets overly credited for things that he did not innovate himself such as: his dancing, performance style, singing style, songwriting credits etc. You keep telling me to show you proof of my explanations but I have lol I have supported my opinion pretty well I think.
He idolize Jackie Wilson and studied his dancing and copied it. I think he even copied his singing style as well. There are pictures of Elvis at Jackie Wilson's concerts and shows which I even posted above. Elvis has even said he admire Jackie and other black musicians. I am not going to post every single Elvis song and give you credits but alot of his songs were written by African American songwriters and musicians. Its all on the internet for all to see. Elvis did not write any of his songs or was involved in the production of his music. I think the others I mentioned had more impact musically because they were actually involved in the production of their music and the sound. They all played multiple instruments, wrote their music and really transcend the genre musically. Also, their singing styles as well.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
IT doesn't mean it was peaches and cream for white artists either. What's your point? Every person who's in the music industry had to struggle to get to where they are, unless they had parents directly involved, they had to go through the same process to get noticed. White, black, hispanic, doesn't matter what the skin color is, you're undermining the very accomplishment of becoming a household name as an entertainment icon.
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I stopped reading after the bolded. This is a really ignorant statement. I don't see how you can possibly categorize white people being discriminated against the same as how African Americans were discriminated against.
White people's records were not being black listed because they were white
White people did not get denied access to hotels and award shows because they were white
White people were not getting snubbed nominations because they were white
White people were not fearful of their lives when they had to perform in the South
I think it is absolutely insulting that you honestly believe white musicians had the same struggle and hardships as African Americans musicians during the Jim Crow era when they did not.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
Post some examples of songs, years, etc. I'm not going to look this crap up for you.
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I am not going to look it up either because it is all on the internet for all to see. I don't have to lie about anything to prove a point but just on the top of my head
Otis blackwell (renowned African American songwriter)- wrote Elvis's "Don't Be Cruel", "All Shook Up" which he originally recorded but like I said..... Elvis scouted the African American rock n roll songwriters/musicians because it was easy to cover their music without crediting them.
He heard Otis version and really liked it which is why he wanted to record those songs and it became a hit. Of course nobody knows about Blackwell's original versions though.
NONE of those black songwriters got a nickle from those Elvis songs, NONE.
Sad really when you think about it. The Elvis Estate is worth a billion I don't see why the family of those songwriters can't be compensated.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
There was no rock n roll before Elvis, it didn't exist. It was rhythm and blues, country and western, jazz, folk, etc.
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It did exist and I already told you Fats was recording and performing rock n roll way before Elvis was even signed. There were unsigned black artists that were doing rock n roll way before Elvis was even signed. Where do you think he got his songs from? lol
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
You find me a good example of rock, and I'm sure there is plenty of good music that resembles rock before 1954, and I'll give that to you. It doesn't change anything though. White people have been making music that sounds like rock for as long as black people. And if we're going off of what is actually considered rock, well, Elvis was the first one in 1954.
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I gave you an example lol Did you look up Fats on youtube and researched about him? Fats was already on the scene before 1954 with hits. He pioneered it before Elvis. You have to do some work too. lol I am not going to sit here and do all the work.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
It has nothing to do with the media.  |
It has everything to do with the media because the media has brainwashed you into believing that Elvis is the end all be all of rock n roll and that white people helped in pioneering it when they did not. African Americans pioneered the genre.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
It has everything to do with facts, dates, and a tiny bit to do with perception being the reality, since we can't factually say whether or not anything is rock.
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How can you talk about facts and dates when you have not listed that yourself? You keep arguing that Elvis was the first to bring rock in roll on the scene in 1954 and I debunked that.
This is from wikipedia:
Fats Domino first attracted national attention with "The Fat Man" in 1950 on Imperial Records. This song is an early rock and roll record, featuring a rolling piano and Domino doing "wah-wah" vocalizing over a strong back beat. "The Fat Man" sold one million copies by 1953.[3] Fats Domino released a series of hit songs with producer and co-writer Dave Bartholomew, saxophonists Herbert Hardesty and Alvin "Red" Tyler and drummers Earl Palmer and Smokey Johnson. Other notable and long-standing musicians in Domino's band were saxophonists Reggie Houston, Lee Allen, and Fred Kemp, Domino's trusted bandleader. Domino finally crossed into the pop mainstream with
"Ain't That A Shame" (1955), which hit the Top Ten, though Pat Boone characteristically hit No. 1 with a milder cover of the song[4] that received wider radio airplay in a racially-segregated era. Domino eventually had 37 Top 40 singles.
It even pointed out the fact that a white artist received more credit for covering one of his songs in a racially- segregated era, a point that I even brought up that you oddly keep minimizing.
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death
From my objective point of view, I see music history for what it is. Black people and white people have been making great music that shaped rock n roll for many, many years. It didn't just happen one day when some black guy walked into a studio and recorded rock like you want it to be. My point of view is basically "black and white music had equal influence on rock", yours is basically "black people invented rock, and white people copied them".
Which one is more reasonable to you?
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It is not about one being more reasonable, it is about facts. There are facts that support that African Americans pioneered rock n roll and whites imitated the sound and singing style of those artists. Most of the white artists during those eras covered songs that were written by black artists and musicians and just manufactured the sound for white audiences.
I don't think you are being objective at all. You don't want to credit African Americans for rock n roll because YOU think they did not pioneer it despite evidence and facts that support that they did.
I think whites helped in popularizing it and bringing notoriety to the real African American pioneers of the genres but they certainly did not innovate it.
Race has everything to do with this discussion because it is the reason why Fats, Little Richard and Chuck Berry do not get the proper respect they deserve in their genre unlike their white counterparts.
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