VEGANGELICA

Oh, I'm one of the 5% who checked out the website and videos about the Lingerie League, Thrice. I documentated how the viewers' taste for scantily clad women leads to unnecessary injuries of the women, which is one reason I find the Lingerie League degrading.

There's nothing wrong with women playing football. I don't find anything bad about the International Women's Football League (IWFL), where they play contact American football with regular uniforms and teams...other than my usual complaints about American football, which I dislike because it has unnecessary collisions and tackling that hurt people.

I'm surprised you thought your thread topic wouldn't cause a fuss. You knew it was only a matter of time until I noticed it!

I see the Lingerie League as a weird combination of sexuality and violence in which some people put themselves at risk, and are encouraged to do so, to get others off. Sex often seems to be about people using others for their own pleasure without caring for them, and I don't like that or social activities like the Lingerie League that glorify this dynamic.

I also agree with you that the whole beer and football-loving plus lets-see-how-many-women-I-can-oogle stereotypical image that men seem to be pressed into is silly...as if beer and football and womanizing make someone a man. However, some men (and women) really do seem to relish the combination.

Do you think they're trying to make up for their insecurities ("I'm weak! I'm not a man!") or do you think they are just genuinely giving in to their urges ("Sex! Violence! Yee-haw!")?

I hadn't thought of the indirectness of the sexuality in the Lingerie League as being an issue, mostly because when I watch the promo videos the sexuality seems pretty darn direct.

Making philosophical arguments about some social activity isn't a personal vice at all, Skaligojurah...it's called sociology!

I agree football and contact sports are an outlet for inner violence...and I don't feel there is anything wrong with inner violence (I've got my share)...but I DO feel it is wrong when people hurt themselves or others physically as they let out their inner violence.

And, frankly, I don't know if football really lets out violence--I think it just exacerbates and strengthens it. The feeling that I get from this thread is that there are quite a few people who *do* find it enticing to watch women mutilate each other half naked. Their response isn't much different from the accounts I hear of people cheering when a man in football gets bashed to the ground and is writhing in pain.

As with your example of the 14-year-olds girls encouraged to get super skinny for acceptance, I also don't like the Lingerie League because in it I feel the people are debasing themselves for acceptance and approval by others. I can feel this when I watch the bikini-clad women playing...a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that these Lingerie League women, for whatever social reasons, are willing to skin themselves up and pound on each other ultimately for the sake of the viewers.

If they did this for free, just for fun, with no one watching and paying, then I'd have no problem with the Lingerie League. But I would wonder why they don't play football with uniforms on to actually help protect themselves from the abrasions I showed earlier.

And back to Urban's example of women being scantily clad in bars. I have no problem with people dressing up sexily if they want to. But if people in the bar then encouraged a woman to be dragged across the rough wooden floor on her exposed midriff, and she, eager to please and get paid for it, agreed...you BET I'd have a problem with that.

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Insane Guest

^You could write a book on the ****ing topic!!!

Urban Hat€monger ?

Why?

If she's in a bar then she's obviously old enough to make her own decisions. You can't possibly know the reason as to why she's doing it.

Maybe she finds it funny
Maybe she's doing it because she has a sick child
Maybe she gets a kick out of it
Maybe it's desperation
Maybe she's the sort of person willing to do anything for a bet.
Maybe she's an exhibitionist

You say your not judging the people that are doing it but you are because you are forcing your own morality onto them and assuming that they're being exploited. The truth is you couldn't possibly know if they are being exploited unless you asked them.

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Thrice

I guess you have to have a set to appreciate such a great thing. I guess I'm just a pretty typical guy. I get off drinking beer, watching football, and eye ****ing women. Its completely a gimmick, that is making money by combining three things that most men enjoy. I don't think it is degrading at all. Women unlike Erica, enjoy flaunting their goods in order to get what they want. Its how girls that graduated high school with looks and sub par GPA get bread. Im sure if the league gave them the option to put on more clothes and earn less money, they would remain bare assed with a fatter paycheck. If they dont like it thy can go work at Hooters and make a lot less money. I don't know what is wrong with a half decent investment by a company targeting such a large group.

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Lew Harrison, who looked like an anarchist with his red eyes and fierce black beard, had been writing furiously in one corner of the room. "That's good—happiness by the kilowatt," he said. "Buy your happiness the way you buy light."

Thrice

I guess you have to have a set to appreciate such a great thing. I guess I'm just a pretty typical guy. I get off drinking beer, watching football, and eye ****ing women. Its completely a gimmick, that is making money by combining three things that most men enjoy. I don't think it is degrading at all. Women unlike Erica, enjoy flaunting their goods in order to get what they want. Its how girls that graduated high school with looks and sub par GPA get bread. Im sure if the league gave them the option to put on more clothes and earn less money, they would remain bare assed with a fatter paycheck. If they dont like it thy can go work at Hooters and make a lot less money. I don't know what is wrong with a half decent investment targeting such a large group.

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Lew Harrison, who looked like an anarchist with his red eyes and fierce black beard, had been writing furiously in one corner of the room. "That's good—happiness by the kilowatt," he said. "Buy your happiness the way you buy light."

VEGANGELICA

My example of people dragging a woman with a bare midriff across a rough wooden bar floor, which presumably rips up her skin just like the turf in the Lingerie League rips up the skin of football players wearing bikinis, is to show how both situations physically HURT someone.

I don't want people to physically hurt themselves, whether the person wants to be physically hurt or not. You are right that this is part of my morality. If someone is willing to be physically harmed for money, I don't feel that is a good thing. I'm not going to support it or encourage it. I don't blame the person being dragged. I blame the people in the bar who encourage her to do something to hurt herself. I judge the onlookers and the perpetrators, Urban, not the woman herself.

So, my judging is actually far wider and deeper than you suggest.

If the bar woman is letting people do this to her because she is desperate or has a sick child, I'm not just going to stand by and let her get hurt. I'd HELP her. And yes, I would judge a person, and harshly, who sits by and gets pleasure from watching someone else suffer.

If the bar woman just lets herself be dragged for kicks and *likes* getting her skin ripped up and bloody while being dragged through the stale beer and dirt, then I still would not encourage her to do this. I would tell the people doing it to stop. Yes, you are right, that is me placing my moral value judgements on someone else.

People have the legal right (which I agree with) to decide if they want to harm themselves or be harmed...even kill themselves...but that doesn't mean I will support them doing this.

I agree it is good to ask people if they feel they are being exploited. Have all the Lingerie League women been asked if they feel they are being exploited? Can we assume if someone looks happy that she is? If I see someone in a situation that my judgement says is exploitation, I won't just assume that she necessarily enjoys it.

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crash_override

Why are you portraying these women as victims? They are football players, they get paid to play a sport they obviously like playing. They get paid to have fun, let it go. I'm jealous too.

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My MB music journal

Dirty

You are taking the whole injury aspect of this way too far... So basically the lack of material leads to worse wounds... Jesus Christ, they are cuts and bruises. They are being asked to play football here. Actually, I'll rephrase that, they are getting PAID to play football here. They get paid a good chunk of money to do hardly anything. Give me a job where I risk getting a bruise or some scrapes and get paid tons.

Your thoughts, like your thoughts about football, always come back to injuries. People are not like you. They will risk injury for the reward. People have different priorities. Some of these girls probably enjoy playing the football, and some of them just enjoy being out there to be hott and collect a check. The quotes about "they are serious athletes and very good!" are useless. There are a lot of serious athletes out there. There's a lot of really good athletes out there. Not everyone can play professionally.

Now I realize there's no pro football league for women (Not a nationally recognized or covered one)... Which poses this question: Since these women are playing football, are they really serious athletes, considering they realize there is no WNFL? Not really. I think you said a lot of them also model. So they are making money off of their bodies. Why is that a big deal? They take great care of themselves, and they are making a living off of it.

VEGANGELICA

Crash, I agree with you that the Lingerie League players aren't victims in the traditional sense. They've read their contract and agreed to it. They had a choice not to join. Plus, the women who participate because they love the sport could, probably, find or start their own chapter of the real football Independent Women's Football League, where women get the same protection men get...but no money.

However, I do feel that the Lingerie League women are, in a wider sense, victims of a society that emphasizes women’s physical beauty over ability in certain professions, and encourages women to be willing to be sex objects to get ahead, which I feel is sad.

Also, Crash, just because someone isn’t a victim doesn’t mean the person isn’t being exploited.

An example that you might relate to is soldiers in the U.S. military who have been more likely to enlist during these poorer economic times and tough job market. Are soldiers being exploited of a war-mongering society that fails to provide economic security for its members through non-violent means, or are the soldiers merely taking advantage of an opportunity that the military “graciously” offers them? I feel U.S. soldiers are both being exploited while also taking advantage of an opportunity. Similarly, I feel the Lingerie League exploits women while also giving them an opportunity they wouldn’t otherwise have.

I agree with a Baltimore Sun editorialist, who wrote:
If you are still jealous of the Lingerie League players, Crash, then by all means join...gentlemen first ...because I'm not jealous at all, and here’s why:

(1) I've read up on the Lingerie League, and it turns out each woman makes only about $500 (£ 311.71) per game, which I feel isn't worth the risk of injuries due to having sub-par protective equipment and uniforms. Apparently, though, they feel the chance to have “exposure” and increased future job opportunities is worth the risks and the unfairness of having to strip down in order to become a female American football celebrity.

(2) Having to play a full contact, tough sport in which players get concussions, broken bones, torn ligaments, and turf burns without proper uniforms *is* a sacrifice, and some Lingerie League players actually see their uniforms as the sacrifice a woman is forced to pay in order to play football semi-professionally.

One Lingerie League player says, "We don’t live in an ideal world. Sometimes you make a sacrifice to play your sport. I do realize the exploitation that goes on to promote attendance, but I do believe there is exploitation on both sides. Yes, we are going to wear our bathing suits, but you are also going to buy the tickets, and we are enabled to become professional athletes where otherwise we wouldn’t even be able to afford to play in the arena." Down, set, strip: The Lingerie Football League | American Observer

(3) The contract that Lingerie League players sign sounds awful. Players aren’t allowed to criticize the Lingerie League, or quit without owing money, and so their claims of “love for playing” the game are suspect. See below:

(4) Finally, I'm not envious of the Lingerie League players receive very few health benefits, and ex-players who have requested that the Lingerie League help pay for ongoing physical problems due to injuries were refused. The Lingerie League is like the NFL but without the good salary and fully protective uniforms!

Here's a good article about the Lingerie League: "Some complain that contracts offered by Lingerie Football League don’t treat players fairly"
Orlandoweekly.com - NEWS+FEATURES: Fumble

Dirty, the Lingerie League women face more than just cuts and bruises...they face injuries like any contact football team, but without protective pads for their breasts, or covering for their legs and torsos...so they may actually risk more injuries than the men who play American football professionally. And like I said to Crash, the Lingerie League women are getting paid MUCH less than men in the NFL. They aren’t able to make a living by being in the Lingerie League.

"People are not like you"--that may be true, Dirty, though there are a few people out there like me...one or two, maybe...who wouldn’t risk their health for money or fame. I don’t think that risking your body in the Lingerie League is “taking great care of themselves." When one goal of many players is to get noticed or pad their modeling resume, risking the very body whose beauty is their selling point in their future jobs is a pretty big risk.

In answer to your question, some of the Lingerie League women actually are athletes who wanted to play American football professionally, but couldn’t because they are women. I think you are right, though, that most of the women hope to use the LL to further their modeling or other careers. I feel it is sad that women are encouraged to show off their bodies to get ahead in their professions.

And now I'll conclude with some videos about the INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FOOTBALL LEAGUE...where women get to be athletes *and* protect themselves like male athletes:

http://www.youtube.com/IWFL#p/a/f/1/_AGO9VkUuMg

http://www.youtube.com/IWFL#p/a/f/0/IaSUxodryd0

and here is a video featuring the IWFL Philadelphia Firebirds:



And I just found out there IS a National Woman's Football Association, the NWFA: http://www.womensfootballassociation.com/

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CanwllCorfe

@0:58 Number 55 Fantastic pass protection!

Oh and I think I've heard of this LFL stuff before. It's kinda stupid. It reminds me of something I'd see in a beer commercial.

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Your eyes were never yet let in to see the majesty and riches of the mind, but dwell in darkness; for your God is blind.