Great Debate: Are eSports sports?

Mrd00d · 05-29-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

1 - Never argued to the contrary. My argument also never "changed tune" as you put it. I have argued since the beginning that physical stress does not define sport. Pointing out that the dexterity requirements were high was only done to reinforce the main point I was making, which was that dexterity IS etymologically a possible defining trait for any sport, even in the absence of strenuous physicality. Competition is what differentiates games and sports, specifically, differentiates the existence of a competitive framework within which the sport takes place, which IS a necessary quality of any sport.

2 - Education is competitive, but the competition is not the end goal of education. This differs from sports. Also rock climbing is not a sport unless in the format of a competition, such as times and speed. Rock climbing without competition is a hobby or pastime.

3 - Simply because they contain all the necessary criteria to be sports, and because having them defined properly would reduce the stigma attached to them.

4 - You repeatedly mention, as have others, that eSports are people trying to "justify" games as a replacement for physical exercise. This is something I have NOT ONCE argued, never WILL argue. I also am not making ANY case for eSports to be considered a viable substitute for EXERCISE.

Sports is not defined by exercise. Exercise is defined by exercise. It is possible to exercise without playing a sport, it is possible to engage in sportsmanship or sporting activities without exercising, as has been evidenced by Snooker, Darts, Curling, Target Shooting, Archery, ALL forms of Motorsport, and probably hundreds of other things all of which are generally recognised as sports.

I think your argument hinges on a lot of assumptions that simply aren't true, like as mentioned before, this insistence that sports must be physical. We have spent some great amount of time considering why they must be physical, and nobody has, as of now, actually presented, or even TRIED to present an argument as to why physical activity is actually a pre-requisite, despite the fact everyone so far seems to have claimed that it is.

I made, and others made, counter-arguments to the sole importance of exercise within sport, within the first half of this entire thread, and nobody has provided any evidence to the opposite.

Sports is organised competitive frameworks within which exercise and physically strenuous sports have traditionally been predominant. The argument that exercise and physicality are a pre-requisite to the classification however, isn't inherent, and at best is Appeal To Tradition, which is a logical fallacy.

Well said. Hopefully that's clear enough.

GuitarBizarre · 05-29-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

Well, the terms overlap a lot - "recreation" in general encompasses everything GuitarBizarre is talking about, but I think that someone who said they do team cycling as a sport does the sport for recreation. But it is definitely still a sport.

All I don't like the sound of are people who never leave their bedrooms saying they spend all day "doing sport" when all they do is sit at a computer screen.

Also, this is what I mean by appeal to ridicule and mockery. This point isn't a point. Its not constructive, its aimed, really, at being marginally offensive if anything.

It displays an inherent misunderstanding of what eSports IS. eSports isn't the result of a lack of a social life and hey presto you're an eSports legend. Its the result of, at the top levels, 8-12 hour work days in purpose outfitted facilities, where daily distractions are removed as much as possible for the betterment of the practice environment, spent doing analysis, practicing, and adhering to a schedule formed around the furtherment of the skill level of the player, with strict self-discipline and continuous goal setting. Reducing it to some sort of ridiculous farce originated by some anonymous ill-defined group of miscreants is a total failure of recognition of what these people are actually doing in order to be where they are.

GuitarBizarre · 05-29-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bam You Have AIDS

Would you clarify your meaning here? Obviously board games also have rules; I'm not sure the difference between game rules and sport rules.

Essentially, do you have a third party or ruling body, to which you can turn in the event of a disagreement or a flouting of the rules? To use a football example, a kickabout in the park does not (game), a Premier League final (sporting event) certainly does. The rules of the game are the same in either case.

Salami · 05-29-2012, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

2 - Education is competitive, but the competition is not the end goal of education. This differs from sports. Also rock climbing is not a sport unless in the format of a competition, such as times and speed. Rock climbing without competition is a hobby or pastime.

I really really disagree with this I'm afraid. For a start, "rock climbing is not a sport unless in the format of a competition"...
Here are a few sources which disagree with you, in order of reliability:

Start Climbing - Part 1 : Introduction & Overview | Rock Climbing Articles | Rockclimbing.com Read: "Climbing is both an individualistic and social sport: when you're on the rock you can only count on your skills to get to the top."

Home Page
Now this is a perfectly legitimate sport and never hints at being competitive.

Rock climbing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly: "Education is competitive, but the competition is not the end goal of education." This is not only a statement I disagree with, but also one which I think is irrelevant. End goal different to sport? Why should the end goal be important at all? The nature of it is what I'm using here - and the fact that you are in competition for university places and subsequently the best jobs means that it is competitive.

If you take issue with this, it's going to be a question of semantics.

Quote:

3 - Simply because they contain all the necessary criteria to be sports, and because having them defined properly would reduce the stigma attached to them.

Sounds deceptive to me, actually.

Quote:

4 - You repeatedly mention, as have others, that eSports are people trying to "justify" games as a replacement for physical exercise. This is something I have NOT ONCE argued, never WILL argue. I also am not making ANY case for eSports to be considered a viable substitute for EXERCISE.

I never accused you of saying that you wanted it as a substitute.

Quote:

Sports is not defined by exercise. Exercise is defined by exercise. It is possible to exercise without playing a sport, it is possible to engage in sportsmanship or sporting activities without exercising, as has been evidenced by Snooker, Darts, Curling, Target Shooting, Archery, ALL forms of Motorsport, and probably hundreds of other things all of which are generally recognised as sports.

I think your argument hinges on a lot of assumptions that simply aren't true, like as mentioned before, this insistence that sports must be physical. We have spent some great amount of time considering why they must be physical, and nobody has, as of now, actually presented, or even TRIED to present an argument as to why physical activity is actually a pre-requisite, despite the fact everyone so far seems to have claimed that it is.

Once again, please explain why even a simple definition here:

Quote:

an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature

as Pedestrian quoted earlier, is insufficient.

I really don't see how sport which is DEFINED as ATHLETIC can possibly be denied, but fair enough.
Perhaps could you explain if this is a definition you have a problem with?

Quote:

I made, and others made, counter-arguments to the sole importance of exercise within sport, within the first half of this entire thread, and nobody has provided any evidence to the opposite.

OK, I'm not bothering to read it again I'm afraid, so feel free to requote it.

Quote:

Sports is organised competitive frameworks within which exercise and physically strenuous sports have traditionally been predominant. The argument that exercise and physicality are a pre-requisite to the classification however, isn't inherent, and at best is Appeal To Tradition, which is a logical fallacy.

It isn't an appeal to tradition. If "athletic" is an integral part of the DEFINITION, then it isn't a false appeal of any kind whatsoever.

Salami · 05-29-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Also, this is what I mean by appeal to ridicule and mockery. This point isn't a point. Its not constructive, its aimed, really, at being marginally offensive if anything.

It displays an inherent misunderstanding of what eSports IS. eSports isn't the result of a lack of a social life and hey presto you're an eSports legend. Its the result of, at the top levels, 8-12 hour work days in purpose outfitted facilities, where daily distractions are removed as much as possible for the betterment of the practice environment, spent doing analysis, practicing, and adhering to a schedule formed around the furtherment of the skill level of the player, with strict self-discipline and continuous goal setting. Reducing it to some sort of ridiculous farce originated by some anonymous ill-defined group of miscreants is a total failure of recognition of what these people are actually doing in order to be where they are.

Come on, you have found something verging a retort in my reply - please refer to the main body of my argument: http://www.musicbanter.com/sport-rec...ml#post1193789

GuitarBizarre · 05-29-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

I really really disagree with this I'm afraid. For a start, "rock climbing is not a sport unless in the format of a competition"...
Here are a few sources which disagree with you, in order of reliability:

Start Climbing - Part 1 : Introduction & Overview | Rock Climbing Articles | Rockclimbing.com Read: "Climbing is both an individualistic and social sport: when you're on the rock you can only count on your skills to get to the top."

Home Page
Now this is a perfectly legitimate sport and never hints at being competitive.

Rock climbing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly: "Education is competitive, but the competition is not the end goal of education." This is not only a statement I disagree with, but also one which I think is irrelevant. End goal different to sport? Why should the end goal be important at all? The nature of it is what I'm using here - and the fact that you are in competition for university places and subsequently the best jobs means that it is competitive.

If you take issue with this, it's going to be a question of semantics.

Sounds deceptive to me, actually.

I never accused you of saying that you wanted it as a substitute.

Once again, please explain why even a simple definition here:
as Pedestrian quoted earlier, is insufficient.

I really don't see how sport which is DEFINED as ATHLETIC can possibly be denied, but fair enough.
Perhaps could you explain if this is a definition you have a problem with?

OK, I'm not bothering to read it again I'm afraid, so feel free to requote it.

It isn't an appeal to tradition. If "athletic" is an integral part of the DEFINITION, then it isn't a false appeal of any kind whatsoever.

*sigh* we COVERED this. Please, read through the thread thoroughly. We did in fact discover that athletic is defined as a product of athlete, and athlete is defined in accordance with the concept of eSports, as there is sufficient breadth to the definition to encompass games and contests of skill rather than strength or endurance.

As regards rock climbing, I disagree with you. I think its misleading to imply that simply because websites ABOUT rock climbing claim sport is involved, that those are actually sports. I can accept rock climbing as a sport if the competitive framework is either faster climbing or being the first to climb somewhere, but I can't accept that rock climbing is a sport outside of that instance.

Regards the definition pedestrian quoted, we also covered that earlier. Since you're quoting from the first page of the thread, allow me to quote my reply to exactly what you quoted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Which part of the definition? Its an activity, it requires skill and some measure of physical prowess, and it is competitive by nature. I see no part of the dictionary definition for sports that conflicts with the concept of eSports, assuming that the dexterity requirements qualify it as a sport the same way they do for Darts or Snooker.

I had thought that perhaps "athletic" would be contradictory, but all definitions of athletic or athletics depend on the definition of an athlete, which is defined in accordance with eSports also, as both the current and classical definitions accept the skill/dexterity requirement as a possible defining factor.

noun
a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.
Origin:
1520–30; < Latin āthlēta < Greek āthlētḗs, equivalent to āthlē- (variant stem of āthleîn to contend for a prize, derivative of âthlos a contest) + -tēs suffix of agency

And allow me to also point out here that by utilising this definition in the manner you intend, you eliminate all the sports I quoted, which are recognised and accepted general sporting events, from being considered as part of the category within which they very clearly fit.

I think you're very much cherrypicking here and glossing over responses to points you're regurgitating.

As for education - The end goal of education is to be educated. One takes notice of the uses which education has and aims for personal improvement in the field sufficient to be better suited for other endeavours. There is nothing about education which is akin to sporting competition. A spelling bee would be a different matter, since at that point competition and victory IS the end goal, rather than the personal improvement.

I think you have a real issue with considering the difference between exercise and sports. They aren't the same thing. One does not imply or deny the other.

Salami · 05-30-2012, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I think you're very much cherrypicking here and glossing over responses to points you're regurgitating.

As for education - The end goal of education is to be educated. One takes notice of the uses which education has and aims for personal improvement in the field sufficient to be better suited for other endeavours. There is nothing about education which is akin to sporting competition. A spelling bee would be a different matter, since at that point competition and victory IS the end goal, rather than the personal improvement.

I think it's worth asking here whether the "end goal" of anything is relevant in this particular discussion, because although I understand that the aim of education is different, there's absolutely sod all in any definitions of sport or even anything these definitions remotely imply that if one does it for the wrong motives then it's not sport. The point is that it is competitive and you were claiming that being competitive is what defines sport.
To put it another way, people who train for a competitive sport are essentially in the same boat - the end goal of their training is to be better equipped for future circumstances, not victory. But yet what they are doing is still a sport.

Quote:

I think you have a real issue with considering the difference between exercise and sports. They aren't the same thing. One does not imply or deny the other.

To be quite frank I still disagree with that - I remember a lot of people referring to activities like "chess" as sports, but to be honest I don't view that as a sport either, merely a "game" (but very important and respectable game).
You say I have a "real issue" with your separation of exercise and sport, and I do, I really don't think they are separate. I see a lot of squirming around earlier in the thread where people say "but 'athletic' in this definition is not a pre-requisite..." but to me it looks really clear that in every definition I've seen "athletic" is the central part - and sadly reading the thread has not remotely altered my opinion. It really is a pre requisite because its the main predicate of the definition of sport.
"Competitive" on the other hand is definitely not a pre requisite - as the definition says "OFTEN". However your stance seems to swap these two around and claim that "competitive" is the predicate, which from Pedestrian's definition it clearly isn't.

Drawing a line under all this:

Looking at the whole debate as a whole, I think personally it's not only a case of no one arguing for any position here looks like changing their minds, but also I personally could not imagine a more tedious debate, essentially bickering over the semantics of attributes of language.

I propose then, that we come to a mutual understanding that neither of us will ever think differently about this. I don't think that you're going to alter your opinion that "competition" is the key element of sport, and I really think all sports are defined by "athleticism" rather than skill or competition.

What do you think? Has this debate worn itself out?

Mrd00d · 05-30-2012, 02:42 PM

It will probably carry on perpetually, Salami. To infinity and beyond.

For the record, I love bickering over the semantics and attributes of language.

Key · 06-16-2012, 02:33 PM

I'd like to just point out something that I have been meaning to post the last couple days.

There's an actual Major Leagues of Gaming: Major League Gaming

Definition of Major League provided by Google: "The highest-level professional league or leagues in another sport."

If gaming has gotten to the professional level that it would call for there to be a Major Leagues for it, I have no problem considering it a sport.

Mrd00d · 06-16-2012, 05:40 PM

Boom, and they've been around for at least 5-7 years. I remember Counter Strike players in the early 2000s competing in their brackets.

05-30-2012, 02:42 PM	#218 (permalink)
Mrd00d Stoned and Jammin' Out Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Northern California; Eugene, OR; mobile Posts: 1,602	It will probably carry on perpetually, Salami. To infinity and beyond. For the record, I love bickering over the semantics and attributes of language. __________________ Mrd00d's Last.fm

06-16-2012, 05:40 PM	#220 (permalink)
Mrd00d Stoned and Jammin' Out Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Northern California; Eugene, OR; mobile Posts: 1,602	Boom, and they've been around for at least 5-7 years. I remember Counter Strike players in the early 2000s competing in their brackets. __________________ Mrd00d's Last.fm

06-16-2012, 02:33 PM	#219 (permalink)
Key . Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 13,153	I'd like to just point out something that I have been meaning to post the last couple days. There's an actual Major Leagues of Gaming: Major League Gaming Definition of Major League provided by Google: "The highest-level professional league or leagues in another sport." If gaming has gotten to the professional level that it would call for there to be a Major Leagues for it, I have no problem considering it a sport.