Salami

Huh. Whatever.
I had a look though and seemed to find you changing your tune from this, originally you were claiming that "dextrous activity" counted as physical activity making eSports sports, and now it's "competition".

This is true - cricket it a sport although not particularly strenuous, golf likewise. Personally, I'd barely consider golf a sport but then again...
One more quote:
OK, first of all I'd like to say that virtually all human activity requires use of our dexterity, including writing, washing, typing etc. which definitely do not count as a sport.
I think that arguing that the level of effort you put into manipulating controls on an XBox or a computer is enough to classify it as a sport is a very faulty line of reasoning because by extension basically by doing your daily routine you're permanently exercising.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you AREN'T claiming that this is legitimate exercise, because if you are then that's a very, very depressing reflection on you!

The point now is that you're definitely trying to claim that the element of a given activity being COMPETITIVE makes it a sport.

I'd like to emphatically object.

There are many aspects of life which are necessarily competitive, yet never considered sports - for instance, education. You getting the necessary grades in your A levels to go to MMU university is competitive. You are competing against other people your age for a place. One could also say that the three hour exams we sit are endurance events. However, I don't think anyone has ever postulated that education is a sport (Sport part of education maybe).
Also, there are many sports that aren't competitive. For instance, hiking, mountain biking and club cycling doesn't have to be competitive at all but are indisputably sports. I really believe that the act of exertion of some form is necessary for something to be classed as a sport - which chess by the way is not. I don't care what the Olympics think, I disagree.



I'd like to ask you a question if I may - why do you want to get eSports labelled as "sports" so much? Are you trying to justify a lifestyle choice? I'm not sure why you want to get this term on your side so much.

Paedantic Basterd

Does a separate class of sport exist for these recreational-games-turned-competitive-sports? I think it would be a decent compromise to allow everything under the "sport" blanket (given the definition of the word), but acknowledge the difference between the categories we're arguing about.

Salami

Well, the terms overlap a lot - "recreation" in general encompasses everything GuitarBizarre is talking about, but I think that someone who said they do team cycling as a sport does the sport for recreation. But it is definitely still a sport.

All I don't like the sound of are people who never leave their bedrooms saying they spend all day "doing sport" when all they do is sit at a computer screen.

FireWaterBurn

GuitarBizarra just keeps going back and forth on what he thinks qualifies as a sport. He wants to go by definition at times, but ignores that almost any definition you find includes physical exertion as necessary. And then tries to say that clicking some buttons counts as physical exertion. As someone just said, education contains the same amount of physical exertion and it's competition. Is it a sport too??

There's just some sort of deep-SEATED thing going on here and I hope GuitarBizarre finds the comfort he seeks.

Salami

Well, I'd like my old pal GuitarBizarre to at least consider my three points from my last post.

(1.) eSports are not a form of exertion.
The exercize required is negligible and does as much for improving one's physiology as daily routine.

(2). Competitiveness does not define sport.
Like I said, education is competitive, and isn't sport, rock climbing isn't but rock climbing is a sport unlike education.

(3). Why do you want to have eSports considered sports?
I don't see the point. There can't be any real achievement from it other than justifying inactivity and laziness.

GuitarBizarre

1 - Never argued to the contrary. My argument also never "changed tune" as you put it. I have argued since the beginning that physical stress does not define sport. Pointing out that the dexterity requirements were high was only done to reinforce the main point I was making, which was that dexterity IS etymologically a possible defining trait for any sport, even in the absence of strenuous physicality. Competition is what differentiates games and sports, specifically, differentiates the existence of a competitive framework within which the sport takes place, which IS a necessary quality of any sport.

2 - Education is competitive, but the competition is not the end goal of education. This differs from sports. Also rock climbing is not a sport unless in the format of a competition, such as times and speed. Rock climbing without competition is a hobby or pastime.

3 - Simply because they contain all the necessary criteria to be sports, and because having them defined properly would reduce the stigma attached to them.


4 - You repeatedly mention, as have others, that eSports are people trying to "justify" games as a replacement for physical exercise. This is something I have NOT ONCE argued, never WILL argue. I also am not making ANY case for eSports to be considered a viable substitute for EXERCISE.

Sports is not defined by exercise. Exercise is defined by exercise. It is possible to exercise without playing a sport, it is possible to engage in sportsmanship or sporting activities without exercising, as has been evidenced by Snooker, Darts, Curling, Target Shooting, Archery, ALL forms of Motorsport, and probably hundreds of other things all of which are generally recognised as sports.

I think your argument hinges on a lot of assumptions that simply aren't true, like as mentioned before, this insistence that sports must be physical. We have spent some great amount of time considering why they must be physical, and nobody has, as of now, actually presented, or even TRIED to present an argument as to why physical activity is actually a pre-requisite, despite the fact everyone so far seems to have claimed that it is.

I made, and others made, counter-arguments to the sole importance of exercise within sport, within the first half of this entire thread, and nobody has provided any evidence to the opposite.

Sports is organised competitive frameworks within which exercise and physically strenuous sports have traditionally been predominant. The argument that exercise and physicality are a pre-requisite to the classification however, isn't inherent, and at best is Appeal To Tradition, which is a logical fallacy.

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Paedantic Basterd

Does competition really differentiate games from sports? I've had friendships ended by a heated game of monopoly before.

GuitarBizarre

This is pretty much what my position has been since the beginning. I even mentioned subcategories some pages back with exactly this intent. I don't even view it as a compromise.

I view the fact it is being CONSIDERED a compromise, more as proof that people have been, intentionally or unintentionally, assuming incorrect things about my stance, such as the repeated statements and appeals to ridicule based around some sort of bizarre assumption that I want gym teachers and fitness instructors to start bringing in eSports curriculum. I have never argued this, and I challenge anyone here to point out where I have ever implied that eSports is a replacement for exercise, or where I have ever argued it should be taught as a physical education. I eagerly await the lack of a response.

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GuitarBizarre

There is a difference between informal and formal competition. A sport adheres to the latter, where the competitive framework is either immutable (Darts rules), or overseen by an authority (Gymnastics judging).

This differs from informal competition, where no third party is required to arbitrate the competition, and all results are player consensus.

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Paedantic Basterd

Would you clarify your meaning here? Obviously board games also have rules; I'm not sure the difference between game rules and sport rules.