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Old 04-02-2008, 11:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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HOT DAMN i want that AR500.

am i going to get in crap for derailing this thread a bit?

i'm curious about the early 70s ibanez guitars. pre-lawsuit. back when they were making clones of fenders and gibsons. i spotted a jazzmaster knockoff a while back under the name 'mansfield' but was able to learn that it was likely produced by ibanez then rebranded for sale in canada. anyone have any more info on this? GB? is $200 a deal for a knockoff of a knockoff?
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:29 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I know a lot about the tech specs of ibanez guitars, but i gotta admit collectors items and even some of their more vintage parts aren't my specialty. I suggest asking on Jemsite to be honest.
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Old 04-02-2008, 11:42 AM   #23 (permalink)
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holy quick reply haha. i'm just a sucker for junky old guitars, especially if i can find them cheap. one of these days i'll start a thread when i get in the market for another new one (been about 2 years so i'm due)
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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To get back onto topic for a moment, threadstarter and anyone who is interested in buying a gibson, READ THIS.

Dinosaur Rock Guitar
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I'll have you know, my ancestors were Kings of Wicklow! We're as Irish as losing a three-nil lead in a must-win fixture!
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Old 04-02-2008, 02:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
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that's a good article but i really think this quote by the interviewer says it all

Quote:
DRG: We should also point out, though, that because of these consistency issues, you can't go by any sweeping generalization or blanket statement on Les Pauls. There are years or even decades that have reputations for being fantastic or terrible. The 50s Les Pauls are supposed to be wonderful . . .

they also reinforce a point i've made in any 'help me buy a guitar thread'. go to the store - IGNORE THE NAME ON THE HEADSTOCK - and try everything until you find something that feels right to your hands and ears. if i had a $1 for every time i've posted something similar i'd have my own vintage LP by now hehe

i really don't think the issue is specific to gibson guitars either. the guys in the interview were obvious dyed in the wool classic-rock heads. which is fine. they knew what they were looking for in terms of tone. it's a common mistake a lot of novices make, they go for the name expecting it to have quality on par with their influences, which is rarely the case.

i also really like the idea of trying out the guitar acoustically before plugging it in. with enough pedals you can make a shoelace strung over a cardboard box with a bottle cap pickup fart out the riff to smoke on the water and make it sound right, but it's hardly a good instrument.
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Old 04-02-2008, 02:38 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I've just had a conversation with a friend that enlightened me to a few things I didn't actually know also, so heres the log for you:


Quote:
Rob says:
gibson are ****s tbh
Rob says:
and tbh
Rob says:
it's not even this stuff that pisses me off
Rob says:
I'd expect a business to get a bit screwy occasionally
Rob says:
but the thing that annoys me
Rob says:
is that gibson guitars are designed so ****ing badly
GuitarBizarre says:
hell man
GuitarBizarre says:
i know
Rob says:
i mean
Rob says:
I@m not even getting to the quality control level
Rob says:
before then
Rob says:
the design is just inherently flawed
GuitarBizarre says:
The SG neckdives, the Les Paul ists in a really really ****ed up position, neither guitar has any comfort contours, the headstocks are heavy, the tuning machines are made of plastic all the way up the range.
Rob says:
it's even worse than that
Rob says:
have you ever seen the schematics?
GuitarBizarre says:
never paid much attention
Rob says:
o.k
Rob says:
basically
Rob says:
in nearly all gibson guitars
Rob says:
the neck humbucker rout goes straight into the neck joint
Rob says:
severely weakening
GuitarBizarre says:
oh right
Rob says:
the neck joint
GuitarBizarre says:
Yeah
Rob says:
so eventually
GuitarBizarre says:
it makes horrible holes very easy to make too
GuitarBizarre says:
hold on
Rob says:
this is most noticeable in the SG
Rob says:
in which case
GuitarBizarre says:
You mean this dont you
GuitarBizarre says:
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o.../blemish04.jpg
Rob says:
there's actually only a piece of wood as thick as the average finger holding the ****ing neck onto the body
GuitarBizarre says:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...x/IMG_0624.jpg
GuitarBizarre says:
those are explorers btw, which suffer the same problem
Rob says:
all gibsons do
Rob says:
the other thing is the headstock angle
Rob says:
most are 13 degrees
GuitarBizarre says:
its way too deep
Rob says:
I think ibanez are about 10
GuitarBizarre says:
WAY too deep
Rob says:
gibson used 15 for a while
Rob says:
but they just snapped off so easily
Rob says:
I mean
GuitarBizarre says:
Its ****ing terrible
Rob says:
13 snaps very easily to start with
GuitarBizarre says:
all it does is wear the nut and make the string stick
Rob says:
well
Rob says:
not quite
Rob says:
angled headstocks make sense
GuitarBizarre says:
not the angled
GuitarBizarre says:
the excessive nagle
Rob says:
but the only person to really get them sorted is Ibanez tbh
GuitarBizarre says:
string trees place uneven stress
Rob says:
that's why I've got ibanezs tbh, because everything is designed so ****ing well
GuitarBizarre says:
but having the angle too high just makes your tuning an ightmare. not to mention the fact gibson still haven't got a clue of the benefits of a straight string pull
Rob says:
yeah
Rob says:
the other thing
Rob says:
my mates got a custom shop les paul
Rob says:
it's ****e
Rob says:
it's got binding on BOTH EDGES
Rob says:
so it digs right into your chest
Rob says:
not nice
GuitarBizarre says:
the les paul shape just isnt ergonomic
GuitarBizarre says:
period
Rob says:
nitrocellulose laquer is ****ing horrible
Rob says:
agian, this is where ibanez excel, they've got some strange laquer that doesn't stick at all
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Old 04-02-2008, 03:10 PM   #27 (permalink)
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you didn't know necks were held to the body by wood as thick as a finger and that les pauls were uncomfortable? no offense but i'm starting to think you haven't actually played many guitars besides a few pawn shop specials and a high end ibanez.

i've also never heard of anyone having their headstock snap off who didn't abuse their instrument prior to having it break.

the plastic tuning pegs are disappointing but does it really make a huge difference as to what material you're twisting so long as the tuning machines rotate and pull the string?

if you're buddy thinks the SG neckdives he'll never EVER want to try my 5 string bass hehehe
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Old 04-02-2008, 03:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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No, if you look, its me saying that les pauls are uncomfortable. The neck joint was news to me, but i can't claim to know everything and I'll admit that set necks were never something I spent a lot of time thinking about. I'm much more familiar with different bolt on systems and neckthrough construction.

As for this guitar, it was owned by a personal friend who keeps very good care of his instruments and never gigged heavily or transported that guitar around without its hardcase.

As for the plastic yes it does since the plastic strips and the peg then doesnt rotate, I've seen it happen on a couple of different SGs.

As for the neckdives, I'll admit that my viper does so also, but the SG is one of the worst yet most popular guitar designs despite that fact.

Also, as stated above, the only reason gibson get away with this is their name. Gibson buyers are slowly turning into a mindset where things like this are to be 'expected' on thousand dollar plus purchases. Hell, as mentioned, Jimmy Page hates his own signature model that Gibson charged tens of thousands for.
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As for me, my inbox is as of yet testicle-free, and hopefully remains that way. Don't the rest of you get any ideas.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
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sorry, i get confused when reading chat logs like that. i don't know why IM progs don't auto bold the users when saving a chat log.

back to the issue at hand, i still don't think it's specific to gibson or their buyers. when you can walk out of high school and into a call center for $12-$15 an hour to start, $1000 isn't 'that' big of a deal. yes, it's still serious cash, but consider how everything else in our modern economy has increased in price. LPs have been about $1000-3000 for as long as i can remember and i've been playing since 1993. the cost of manufacturing and distribution HAS gone up, and drastically in the last few years. i figure the distribution is what's really hurting them more than anything else, the increase in oil prices is going to increase the costs of obtaining materials, increase the base wage their employees will work for, and increase the cost of shipping the guitars for sale. the company has to turn a profit somehow, if the market is willing to accept it then the onus is on the consumer to determine whether or not the product is worthwhile to them.

i hate saying it but $1000 is what i consider the line where mid range starts to taper off and you start to see where high end begins.

i also wouldn't call the SG a popular design, aside from ESP's viper i don't ever recall seeing that design used by any other manufacturer.

like the 2 guys in that interview said, if you want a great guitar you're going to have to pay the price and wait for the luthier to do his work.

i have to ask it again though, WHY did your friend keep that explorer?
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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He didn't...

And not to be picky, but Americans have a much more rosy view of that kind of money on a guitar. Over here in the UK its twice as much with VAT added on top, more often than not, and when guitars for less than a 5th of the price are nearly or completely flawless, you'd think it'd be a lot less common than Gibson make it.
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As for me, my inbox is as of yet testicle-free, and hopefully remains that way. Don't the rest of you get any ideas.
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