mr dave

Thanks for all the replies, I thought my question was rather simple and would get a few examples and a link haha wasn't expecting this.

This is off topic now but I wonder...

ABBA the band, a slight twist on that method to cash in with a bunch of divas using a slight twist on the form that created 'the best' songs for the public?

As for Fugues being based on counterpoint melody and interaction between the instruments is that basically the same deal as rock guys doing trade-offs or call / answer riffs? The way it's described sounds like what happens during a 12 bar blues where one guitar plays the clunk-a-clunk-a-clunk rhythm while the other punches it up with lead licks.

Sorry if I seem to be trivializing the theory, I'm coming from an ignorant rock background. Basically I had a verse / chorus / verse tune with a twist that I was a little curious about haha

Enjoy and thanks

@Burning Down - I can't really say much more than that was a nice piano piece. Hearing a single person perform all the voices provides a great counterpoint to my normal environment where each voice is a different instrument and player.

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Burning Down

It is nice! Originally written for the harpsichord, as the piano had not yet been invented during Bach's time. Here is the same piece on the harpsichord:

Burning Down

^ What a great post! Fugue form is my favourite too, especially Bach - the absolute master of fugue:

Here's one of my faves, Prelude and Fugue in C-sharp Major, WTC Vol. I



Oh, I should also add that fugues can have up to 5 different voices - Bach's Fugue in Bb minor from WTC 1, and the one I posted above (C# major) are the only two from that collection to have 5 voices. All the other fugues have only 3 or 4 voices. A three voice fugue has Upper, Middle, and Lower voices, and a four voice fugue has Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass voices. There is also one fugue with only 2 voices - No. 10 in Em from WTC 1. That one is just played like a canon.

Also, fugue expositions can have a false entry of the subject - that is, the first part of the subject appears but not the rest. It's almost like stretto, but in the exposition and usually only in one voice.

venjacques

Burning Down - very cool addition. Just to reiterate, because it can't be said enough - Bach IS the master of fugue.

I hadn't heard the one you posted before, but my favorite fugue hands down has to be BWV 578 - "little fugue" in G minor.


J.S. Bach - BWV 578 - Fuga g-moll / G minor - YouTube

Again, Bach's a master in polyphonic music.

I wanted to append your voices discussion. Just because you found a fugue with 5 voices, doesn't mean you're limited to that :P. You could probably have a 50 - voice fugue, where each voice of a symphonic orchestra has a part (even the percussionist on a marimba!) Granted, you'd have a lot of muddied sounds, what with all the plethora of musical voices, but it'd still work and be fugal, don't you think?

That being said, 3-5 are totally common. 2's a little thin, and anything heavier than 5 is probably too chaotic to function in a pleasant way.

But oh, the possibilities.

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venjacques

I adore harpsichord and clavichord and am always in awe of accomplished organists.

mr dave - ABBA (the band) probably has nothing to do with deriving itself (themselves) from the form. According to wikipedia, ABBA's the name of a Swedish fish-canning company. But the parallels are un'can'ny

Call-and-answer type music has been around a while. Perhaps the fugue is a great illustration of it, and that's a great observation. For what it's worth, I think modern call-and-answer comes from the gospels and American slave songs.

I know rock has a long lineage from the hands of Blues, Folk, Country, Swing, and Gospel music. Perhaps its ties into the gospel branch gave it that element. But call and answer is a varied form or Imitation, which has been around since at least the baroque period. After all, fugues are imitative monsters, and you nailed that on the head with your observation.

Fugues differ from the concept of a lead line over the clunk-a-clunk of accompaniment by the element of all voices (in this case, parts) would be the melody and the accompaniment and everything else. You could argue that the main voice (the one to start off the fugue) is more important than the others, but that argument is easily lost as the piece progresses.

In jazz and rock and all, normally you have one lead (usually guitar and/or voice in rock, usually trumpet/sax/voice in jazz), and everything else is strictly a background instrument. There's never (ok, rarely) any trade off to other instruments. Even in a drum solo, usually the guitars and other instruments stop playing altogether.

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Dr_Rez

Not in a live show. Go to any bar that has a blues night or house band and the call and response goes between drummer/guitarist...bassist/singer...and pretty much any combination you could imagine. When guys have been playing to gether for a while it really shows and is amazing how they can connect through different instruments.

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blastingas10

I posted this in my "dilemma" thread but I haven't got a response. By the way, if you really want to give some advice I'd suggest you look into "my guitar dilemma" thread more often.

So here it is:


So, I thought I had a fair idea of how to tell what key a certain progression is in. If it starts and ends on the same chord then it is In the key of that chord. Or whichever chord gives that feeling of resolving the progression (which is always gonna be the last chord) is the chord that tells you the key. Am I right?

Well I've got a new problem on my hand. Let's say you have practically two different progressions in the same song - a different progression for the chorus and verses, for example - how do you tell what the key of the entire song is?

Let's say the verse progression is: Am/G/D/C. So this progression would be in the key of C because the progression resolves on C?

Now let's say the progression for chorus is: C/Am/F/D. This progression is in the key of D?

Keep in mind that those progressions are part of the same song. How do I tell what the key of the whole song is when both progressions are in a different key? I'm sure I'm wrong somewhere along the lines, but as of now, I'm confused.

I guess I could solo in the key of C for the verses and then in the key of D for the chorus.

Edit: I've been working with the first progression. The one that goes Am/G/D/C. I've been soloing over it using a mixture of the "A" minor blues scale and dorian mode and it sounds good. That brings me to another question, if the progression is in the key of "c", why does a scale in the key of "a" sound good? I've also been using the "c" major pentatonic and that sounds good as well. I've even mixed the "c" major pentatonic and the "a" minor pentatonic and it doesn't sound bad. Why is this? Isn't it wrong to mix a scale in the key of "c" with a scale in the key of "a"? And isn't it wrong to play a "a" Minor scale over a progression in the key of "c" major? Maybe that progression isn't even in "c" major, maybe I'm mistaken. I'm hoping you can put some clarity on this for me.

Rubato

Am/G/D/C
C/Am/F/D

Both of those are easily in the key of G, the ♭VII taken from the parallel minor. Interpreting the first progression as belonging to C would be weak as the F♮ doesn't occur, so the sub-dominant region becomes very slack, not only that but the secondary dominant on II overemphasizes the dominant region. The notes from the C major Pentatonic and the A minor pentatonic scale lacks both the F♮ and B♮, so it can easily fit into keys located on the Tonic, dominant and sub-dominant regions (C,G and F).

blastingas10

Ok, you might need to dumb that down for me

I'm stumped. It's actually in g? Damn I was off.

So now that I get my handy dandy key chart, I see that D major is not located in the C major column. And I see that all those chords are located in the G major column. I don't really understand why but I now know to use my chart and that whichever chord ends the progression doesn't mean it's in the key of that chord. But the F major isn't in the G major column, so I'm still confused as to how the whole thing is in G major.

Rubato

The F major chord in G is taken from the parallel minor (♭VII), it's often referred to as a borrowed chord, that is to say the F major belongs to G minor (natural/unraised), because G major and G minor are so closely related it's not felt as foreign to the key. The D major in C is the secondary dominant of V (V/V), it puts emphasis on the dominant, this chord is actually fairly common, but because of the lack of strength in the sub-dominant region here it actually pushes us directly into the dominant key (G major).

The sub dominant and dominant keys are very closely related to the tonic, The sub dominant shares all notes with the Tonic except for B and the Dominant shares all notes with the tonic except for F.


T-------------------C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
SD--F - G - A - B♭- C - D - E - F - G - A - B♭- C
D-------G - A - B - C - D - E - F#- G - A - B - C


if you look at the first progression

Am-G-D-C

they contain the notes A,C,E - G,B,D - D,F#,A and C,E,G

to cancel out the Dominant region we'd need an F♮ to counteract the F#
to cancel Out the sub-dominant we'd need a B♮ to counteract the B♭

The first chord is fairly neutral, the second cancels the sub-dominant key as we'd expect G minor (G,B♭,D). Now the key could be either C or G, since the next chord contains F# and there was no F♮ to contend with it we are now pushed straight into the key of G rather than C, the progression D-C also enforces the interpretation of G being the tonal center as it makes a deceptive progression V-IV.

This explains why the ear would struggle to find C to be the tonal center, If you done the same with G you'd find it poses no risk of moving to its closest regions, with C being its sub-dominant and D it's dominant (difference between G and D is C#, C♮ of course occurring on the first chord, the second now neutral and the third canceling out C because of the F# present.