Music Banter

Music Banter (https://www.musicbanter.com/)
-   Talk Instruments (https://www.musicbanter.com/talk-instruments/)
-   -   Music Theory - Ask anything to receive answers (https://www.musicbanter.com/talk-instruments/61440-music-theory-ask-anything-receive-answers.html)

venjacques 03-18-2012 01:31 PM

Music Theory - Ask anything to receive answers
 
Hello! I'm relatively new to the forum and I'm offering to answer music theory questions regarding anything about reading/writing music.

I hope this thread becomes a place where music theory is discussed and those lost on concepts are able to find the answers they're looking for. The theory thread is now open! :) Ask away.

GuitarBizarre 03-18-2012 01:46 PM

What are the main binary oppositions in evidence in Radiohead's Kid A?


Also, can you tell me the type of chord used as the main returning chord in Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde?

Phantom Limb 03-18-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre (Post 1166475)
What are the main binary oppositions in evidence in Radiohead's Kid A?


Also, can you tell me the type of chord used as the main returning chord in Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde?

Are you talking about the album or the song? Also, melodically or thematically?

GuitarBizarre 03-18-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phantom Limb (Post 1166477)
Are you talking about the album or the song? Also, melodically or thematically?

The album, and thematically including timbral considerations.

I'd also appreciate a schenkerian analysis of same, and a brief discussion of the ambiguous key centers extant in a couple of the albums songs that mostly focus around moving an interval around a key tonic.

SATCHMO 03-18-2012 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre (Post 1166479)
The album, and thematically including timbral considerations.

I'd also appreciate a schenkerian analysis of same, and a brief discussion of the ambiguous key centers extant in a couple of the albums songs that mostly focus around moving an interval around a key tonic.

Oh, now you're just showing off :laughing:

Dr_Rez 03-18-2012 05:43 PM

Who plays their chords without the fifth? When playing metal I find it neccisery for the right sound but in many rock songs and other genres a full chord without that fifth sounds much more original. I know some jazz players **** on the fifth and look down upon it, but to me it is the foundation of all music I love.

GuitarBizarre 03-18-2012 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATCHMO (Post 1166514)
Oh, now you're just showing off :laughing:

I would be if I'd asked a sensible question. You can't apply schenkerian analysis to most pop music, it relies on an assumption that a composer is consciously working to start and return to a key center via modulation across the duration of a work. The whole concept totally falls apart with informally composed music or ambiguous keys.

As far as the ambiguous key centers thing...lifted straight out of a research textbook I had around for the essay I just handed in. Marrianne Tatom Letts. Good read actually.

GuitarBizarre 03-18-2012 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RezZ (Post 1166534)
Who plays their chords without the fifth? When playing metal I find it neccisery for the right sound but in many rock songs and other genres a full chord without that fifth sounds much more original. I know some jazz players **** on the fifth and look down upon it, but to me it is the foundation of all music I love.

The thing about the 5th isn't when to use it or not. You can leave it out of anything really, because it can be implied a lot of different ways. The 3rd is more important a lot of the time, because the 3rd is what defines a major or minor chord.

Powerchords get around both of these weird things by not having a third, and therefore being diatonically ambiguous, and also by taking advantage of a resonance phenomenon. The mathematics of it are unimportant, but suffice to say, a 5th interval's harmonics interact in such a way that root and 5th combined sound their respective notes, but the peaks in their waves overlap such that a third pitch is discerned as being one octave lower than the root.

On a clean guitar this is already audible, but adding in distortion compresses the whole thing and gives the guitar a massively increased low end punch. Try it. Play a powerchord at the 12th fret and see if you can hear a lower fundamental equal to the note of the open string.

venjacques 03-18-2012 08:45 PM

From what I could gather by looking at a few sources of the album, listening to the whole thing in its entirety, and reading the lyrics, I have come up with a summary of the album Kid A by Radiohead. I'll give you the general scope, and then support each part with examples. Note that these analyses are simply my interpretations; they're not set in stone. Let's begin!

As far as the main binary oppositions, there are quite a few in a range of perspectives.

Opposing sides are:

Pitched music (guitars/synths/keyboards) vs. Drum and other Rhythmic devices.
Being one with the world vs. Being one with society
Monotony vs Chaos.
Right vs. Wrong

As a general rule of thumb, the melodic portion of the music emulates physical action of a character, while the rhythm portrays the thinking/speaking (the lack of physical action). Upon looking at wikipedia, it analyzed the songs individually, and even said where Radiohead was coming from with its creations, but lacked a sense of analysis of the album as a whole. I tried connecting the pieces together, and though it has some bumps, I think ties it all together. Each one adds on to a greater story.

Track 1- Everything in its Right Place
This one is a personal story about the main character. The lyrics state "I've got two colors in my head", which follows right into a binary sense of the overall concept. This could be his sentient knowledge of good vs. bad. With a lack of drums in the background, it has somewhat of a lack of thinking, and our main character is just going through his life. The song fades out at the end, suggesting that this process is continuous.

Track 2 - Kid A
The piece has the same texture and sound color as the end of the first track. Only at 0:28 does a rhythm pattern enter. It's not hard, but definitely present. The lyrics talk about 'a little white lie' and ventriloquists. These are huge images of political power going corrupt. 'Rats and children follow me out of town' is clearly a corrupted leader leading his blind followers for selfish gain, reminiscent of the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Again, the subtle gears are turning, and the corrupted society is being built.

Track 3 - National Anthem
This one was a personal favorite. The repetitive bass figure on the intro is wonderful in its depiction of even modern society. People hustling and bustling around just 'doing their job'. No one thinks outside the box. In fact, at 0:23, the drum kit stops for a bit (saying the thinking process stops), yet the bass line (the physical action) still continues. Very clever. The texture becomes more complex with extra sounds from about 0:50 until the vocal entrance at 1:36. The bass line keeps going, but the vocal line is the main character (not the pied piper character; but a person in society, now mentioned by me as 'Kid'). And he's looking around looking at the way society works. "What's going on?" and "Everyone has got the fear" speak for themselves. Blind, repetitive action as the bass line continues without stopping. The chaos builds up in the 3rd minute and just stacks and stacks. Finally it shortly recedes a bit (the lesser of two chaoses really) at about 3:42. The drums stop, but the bass line of course continues. There's another hiccup in drums at 4:50. The drums stop all together at 5:12. And the bass line finally stops on an abrupt blaring of horns at 5:17. Perhaps this is signaling the quitting bell. Unrelated music plays at 5:30, and then dies quickly into a sound of wind blowing. This could be the emptiness of the workforce for the day; each gone home until tomorrow.
I was blown away by this piece. Not because I thought it was pleasing to listen to (the monotony and I'm not the biggest fan of brass), but its symbology as it plays into the story and mimics modern society too is fantastic. "The National Anthem" is a perfect title. Whether we're aware of it or not, most daily life globally marches to this beat metaphorically.

Track 4 - How to Disappear Completely
The words give the mood of this one. They deny all. The speaker is feeling disconnected to society; to everything he has grown up with. "I'll be gone" shows his idea of escape from the society. Through the whole piece, there's a very melodic line - peaceful like the first and second tracks. The main difference is that it is a different speaker from the second track (Kid again). The drums pick up at 2:15, right when he says "In a little while, I'll be gone". His action has cognitive thinking. This solo-subject piece has a substantial beat, the volume of which shows the level of thought used. This track is about a thinking individual denying his society. At 4:38 the vocal line turns into a higher register. This is the speaker screaming at the top of his lungs as he is reborn spiritually into a world outside of his society.

Track 5 - Treefingers
The first thing that struck me about this piece was that there were no drums. None. Not one. No words either. This one is strictly the peace after the rebirth process that is Track 4. I'm thinking this is the night after he runs away from home, past the outskirts of town; into the unknown. It's a peaceful sound though, so it's a piece of reflection and welcoming, I'd like to think. Also a very wonderful contrast to The National Anthem.

Track 6 - Optimistic
The beat and the melodic lines start together. The vocal line talks about very pastoral things - vultures, big fish eating little fish, trying the best you can. And the best you can is good enough! Very uplifting. But I think that last part might be said in sarcasm, because the speaker is then saying "This one's optimistic. This one went to market." Like the one being observed is shopping for something new (a new way of life in this case). This is the most together piece so far, having the rhythm and melodic lines together at all times. Action and cognitive thinking are together in harmonies like we haven't seen before. The words move onto "I"d really like to help you man." Perhaps he's speaking from an observer's perspective (like you). You're watching it all happen, and you can scream at the TV screen, but he's not able to hear you and you can't alter his fate. The last line says "Dinosaurs roaming the earth", which shows that this escape from society has proven that there are mysteries happening that the main part of society had no idea about.

Track 7 - In Limbo
Melody starts the piece off for a few seconds, and then a thickened (almost too thick to breathe) texture comes in with the backing beat at 0:08. This piece struck me as a blurring between the new and old. What seemed so clear as good (the seek for a new way of life) and bad (the old society) is now close to one and the same. "You're living in a fantasy world" shows this. It goes on to say "I've lost my way" and "I got a message I can't read." The clarity is muddied. The action represented by the melodic lines becomes very chromatically inclined, adding to the "what exactly am I doing anymore" feeling. The beat is there, so the actions and head are working overtime, and the dissonance of the chordal structures adds onto this blending. At the end, the music kind of turns into nothing from 3:00 till about 3:07 where the music just fades out. Perhaps this is an overload of the main character, as he's again questioning who he is and what his purpose is.

Track 8 - Idiotique
The beat kicks this one off. The first melodic concept at 0:12 is quite random, spastic, and frantic, as if he's slapping some sense into himself out of desperation. His actions become as frantic as his thoughts. The vocal line talks about "Women and the children first." Perhaps he's salvaging his people from the society that finally capsized. I can see the panic in his mind. "Ice age coming" means something bad's on the brink. "Let me hear both sides" could be him trying to lead his people to better places. And "Throw it in the fire" is him giving orders to a lost people needing a leader. "Everything all of the time" means all hell is breaking loose. It's about a group of people escaping as he did before, only under more time-pressured circumstances. The constantly present uneven beat line is emulating the chaos in his head, and the melodic lines are broken up through the piece. His mind's on overdrive, but his actions aren't able to keep up because he's thinking too much. The last 13 seconds of the piece are eerily droned out. I think this is the sound of the dead city / society devoid of its people.

Track 9 - Morning Bell
The uneven beat comes on again. But the melodic line is calmly put together similar to the first and second tracks. The actions are then just kind of droned like a person in autopilot; unaware of their daily life, just like in the society we escaped from. The 5/4 meter is putting a strain on the new society's image. The Morning Bell is a society concept. "Release me" is not a good sign for this newly formed society. The dialogue in the vocal line are typical things that could be said between a couple that's lost the will to stay together. Not all new things end well, sadly. "Sleepy jack the fire drill running around around around" adds to the chaos in this new society. The last three parts are kind of disturbing - "Cut the kids in half", "I wanted to tell you but you never listened, you never understand", and "The lights are on but nobody's home". These aren't promising things you want to have occur between any two parties of a new society. The very last line of "Everyone wants to be a friend, Nobody wants to be a singer" is dangerous for a new society as well. Everyone wants to keep everyone else happy and won't speak up to speak their mind. Sheep aren't a good way to make a profitable society. This song is saying how the new society is just like the old one in so many ways. It sounds different, but there are problems anyway.

Track 10 - Motion Picture Soundtrack
This is how it all comes down. There are no beats in this one. Just a soothing, dead sounding, melodic line. The lines have lost hope with images of red wine, sleeping pills, cheap sex, and sad films. "I think you're crazy, maybe" is a way to say he's not sure of his values anymore, though he's quick to judge. "Stop sending letters, letters always get burned" means that though someone can say sweet things and make promises, they never last forever and aren't set in stone. And "They fed us on little white lies." Perhaps they never actually left the grasp of society and just transplanted it instead. The song ends with "I will see you in the next life" at 3:15.
Then silence for a minute.
At 4:19, the melodic line comes back as a thin note. This reminded me of a flat-line heart monitor. Perhaps the Kid died; or rather the essence of him died. But from 4:19 - 5:08, the melodies swell and grow into beautiful harmonies. Perhaps this is the life after death. A sort of "to be continued". There are no drums, so we don't know what he's thinking, but there's something going on for sure.

From 5:08 to 6:57, we're left to wonder what exactly that ending means to us. Very zen.
-------------------
Schenkerian Analysis for Kid A by Radiohead:

I wasn't able to find the music itself, so analyzing the vocal line in collaboration with the harmonies would be very difficult. I'll proceed to just do the chordal synopses.

Track 1 - Everything In Its Right Place
The whole piece is easily in Db Major or Ab Major, but it stresses heavily on its seventh chord ( C ). This leads me to believe it's more of a Phrygian on C, with the scale then being allowed for C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C.
The main chords throughout the piece are F C Db and C/Eb. It's repetitive to say the least.
This makes the intro simply: i II i
and the verses are: iv i II i

Track 2 - Kid A
Our chords are F, g and a, all in first inversion (the third's on the bottom)
The bridge switches up. Until then, we have in the key of F Major: I ii iii ii
The bridge is just C heavy, so it's just V

Track 3 - National Anthem
This is just D heavy, with a little C involved. For the most part, it's just
I and then I VII

Track 4 - How to Disappear Completely
The chords are D major, f# minor and A Major with a little E major in there.
Intro is simply, in D: I iii
The verse is then I iii as well, until the chorus of V iii
The bridge is simply II iii.

Track 5 - Treefingers
F#, E, B, C#, G#
In the key of B, this one is V IV I ii
And then IV V vii/V V
and finally V vi V
It ends on a nice half cadence :)

Track 6 - Optimistic
g, a, Bb, b, C, D, d. D is usually in the bass of the majority of chords. I believe this one fluxes between D minor and D dorian. I'll be doing this in dorian to start.
Intro is: v vi i vi VII i
Then: i vii ii I i vii ii II
The verse is: i VII iii I i VII ii I i VII ii I i VII ii I
The chorus is: ||: v iv I i VII ii I :|| I
The bridge is: i VII ii I
Outro is then: i VII ii I, v vi I, VI VII I, i VII ii I
Phew long song.

Track 7- In Limbo
Chords are: d a e G F and c
The intro is cute. If in D, it goes like this -
i v ii IV III which is lovely. 1 5 2 4 3. It narrows down on the middle chord. Very systematic and works. It's in limbo, after all. You're stuck in the middle, with no where to run :)
It looks like they're still in the D minor/dorian thing from before though.
Verse is in c though, then back to d for the chorus:
Verse: i v iii I
Chorus is the same as the intro
Outtro is same as the verse.

Track 8 - Idiotique
Chords - g Eb
The entire thing is just: i VI

Track 9 - Morning Bell
Chords: a G D
The entire thing is just: i, VII V

Track 10 - Motion Picture Soundtrack
Chords: G C b C D e
Intro: I IV iii IV
Verse: Same as intro
Chorus: vi IV I V

And that's all for the chords.

----------------------------

As for the discussion of the ambiguous key centers, there are a few examples that I think fit your request.

First up is track 1!

The first piece is unique for a beginning with phrygian scale. I bet this is their way to get a hook and be original. I'm pretty sure being in a phrygian scale is an odd choice to start with.

Track 2 is interesting too in that it's just a rocking from the 1 to 3 chord, via the 2 chord the whole way. We then go to the dominant (rather far away from the tonic) in the bridge, which could be foreshadowing for the plot of the whole story.

Track 3 stays within a step for both of its chords. The monotony of the daily life is emulated clearly by this lack of chordal diversity. It's not very easy to define a key with just two chords, so it's teetering on a thin line with just sticking to these two chords.

Track 5 is unique on the soundtrack because it ends on a half cadence. It also doesn't stress what key it's in and kind of floats freely through the whole thing. The ambiguity makes it seem like home (tonic) is "somewhere" but we're not exactly concerned so much to find it. Very nice imagery for the way this piece functions the the grand scheme of things.

Track 6, despite its many chord progressions, is rather stable. The only interesting thing is that it goes from D minor to D dorian with a very wishy washy Bb/B.

Track 7's intro is nice and clever, like I already stated. It goes from the 1 to the 5, then back towards the 1 to the 2, then back to the 5 and hits 4, and then settles its rocking into 3. 1 5 2 4 3.

Track 8's harmony is made up of a pair of double chromatic mediants. That's pretty unique as far as the rest of the album goes.

A common theme in these pieces is that they establish tonic (more or less) and then try to get away from it and never come back to it again. Quite poetic given the subject matter, I'd say.

***

I'm not usually one to listen to Radiohead (I think all I know is their Creep song), but this was a very intense and gratifying process to analyze, and I feel like I learned a lot and had a full experience while diving in. I hope this enlightened you and answered your question, GuitarBizarre. This is quite a detailed question. I didn't just give you highlights for a final or otherwise semester project, did I? o.O


-----------------

As for the Tristan Und Isolde, I think what you're thinking of is, appropriately named, the Tristan Chord. This chord, made famous by Wagner's opera of Tristan Und Isolde, is a large part to Tristan's 'leit motif', or theme motive. It occurs every time he's introduced audibly, and is simply a misspelled half-diminished chord of F B D# G#, this can be 'correctly' respelled as F Ab Cb Eb chord.

The thing that makes this chord so obscure is that it's found in such an unrelated key. A typical F half-dim 7 chord should be in the key of Gb major. Instead I believe the key was a minor (don't quote me on this). Several composers since Wagner were interested in replicating this chord and have used it since.

Interestingly enough, to tie everything together, an artist named Paul Lansky used the Tristan chord and inversions of it for a piece he made named "Mild und Leise". Radiohead then used Lansky's interpretation in their 8th track, Idiotique of Kid A.

venjacques 03-18-2012 08:53 PM

For RezZ, I think we should talk about what power chords are in general. As GuitarBizzare has mentioned, the power chords are "diatonically ambiguous". But they take the concept of the barre chord - a chord with at least the root, third, and fifth represented. The power chord cheats this feat with only representing the root and the fifth. What you're talking about seems to be with just the root present, thus ignoring the fifth. Technically, if you only have one note, there are only 7 chords it could possibly represent in any given major or minor key.

If you're in the key of C major, for example, you have C major, d minor, e minor, F major, G major, a minor, and b diminished for possible chords. Therefor, given a general feel for the key, you can start to assume quite a bit of information. If you play C A F G, I'm going to assume they're just the roots of the chords. Interestingly enough, the first 3, C A F spell a descending F major chord; but that's hardly relevant for chords. What I mean then is if you play these 4 notes and I get a feel that you're in C major anyway, I'm going to assume they are C major, a minor, F major, and G major. The ambiguity is quite profound, but it's stable enough if I have a general sense.

Another thing to take a look at is a bass guitarist. He is responsible for basically one note at a time. If he's playing just a riff without a fellow guitarist/keyboardist to help him out, he's playing one note at a time. Chances are, unless there's a very nice counterpoint between him and the vocalist, that he's playing root notes every step of the way. The good news is, if you're in a certain key, the choices of what he's able to play are limited to about 7 in most cases.

Dr_Rez 03-18-2012 11:13 PM

Well venj at first I did not think you were here to actually discuss anything but to advertise but after those 2 posts I can say you are an awesome poster.

Thanks for taking the time to answer. You and gb.

venjacques 03-18-2012 11:16 PM

Thank you very much, RezZ. I hope our joined posts were enough to answer your question. Let me know if you have anything else you're not 100% on. :)

GuitarBizarre 03-19-2012 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venjacques (Post 1166562)
I hope this enlightened you and answered your question, GuitarBizarre. This is quite a detailed question. I didn't just give you highlights for a final or otherwise semester project, did I? o.O

Haha, no, I'm finishing up a music degree so I grabbed some questions from my reference materials (I handed in a Radiohead Essay on the 16th) to try and trip you up. :P

Wasn't expecting you to actually go ahead and do it, and in such detail, I have to say. I'm with RezZ, I got the wrong impression first off. Welcome to MB.

venjacques 03-19-2012 12:33 PM

Thank you kindly. I appreciate the kind words. :)

Guybrush 03-19-2012 12:49 PM

Good answers, venjacques and GB :)

Kinda makes me wish I had a question about music theory!

Burning Down 03-19-2012 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore (Post 1166729)
Good answers, venjacques and GB :)

Kinda makes me wish I had a question about music theory!

I wish I had a question too... the sad truth is I'll probably be answering more questions in here I might ask.

blastingas10 03-19-2012 03:06 PM

Do y'all know any good books for learning theory?

Burning Down 03-19-2012 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10 (Post 1166770)
Do y'all know any good books for learning theory?

Amazon.com: Elementary Rudiments of Music (9781554400119): Barbara Wharram, Kathleen Wood: Books

I have no idea why Amazon is listing new ones as $250. That's ridiculous. I got my copy new for $30.

Oh here, check this out: http://www.musicianswebstore.com/pro....asp?prod=WT01. And they ship worldwide, not just in Canada.

Try this one too: http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/...inners/4940009

venjacques 03-19-2012 09:05 PM

What kind of theory level are you talking, balstingas10?

There are many kinds of books, so consider level, instrument, and purpose at least.

Level can be beginner, intermediate, advance, and then something like.. the 20th century stuff where composers are still making up rules and all.

Instrument can matter. For example, a guitar teacher teaching guitar theory will approach the subject differently than would a flute teacher teaching flute theory. If you're not learning a specific instrument (or many), then piano theory is a safe bet, since everything is based on the musical keyboard's layout, and it's easy to make chords, play scales, and all that.

Purpose is also a defining factor. Do you want to be a composer? You'll have to know a lot of theory. If you want to learn drums, then you might not need scales or chords, as the drums doesn't have a way to really play a traditional scale or chord.

So anyway, can you narrow it down before we recommend something your way? :) Thanks!

Burning Down 03-19-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venjacques (Post 1166903)
What kind of theory level are you talking, balstingas10?

There are many kinds of books, so consider level, instrument, and purpose at least.

Level can be beginner, intermediate, advance, and then something like.. the 20th century stuff where composers are still making up rules and all.

Sure, and then there is also modal theory and tonal theory. I'm assuming he means learning tonal theory. Working with modes is just a bitch sometimes :laughing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by venjacques (Post 1166903)
Instrument can matter. For example, a guitar teacher teaching guitar theory will approach the subject differently than would a flute teacher teaching flute theory. If you're not learning a specific instrument (or many), then piano theory is a safe bet, since everything is based on the musical keyboard's layout, and it's easy to make chords, play scales, and all that.

Piano theory is pretty standard, though, isn't it? When you are learning stuff like four part choral writing (SATB), chord progressions, mixture, diatonic modulation, applied chords, chord substitution, etc., piano theory is generally used.

venjacques 03-19-2012 11:01 PM

Traditionally, the modes didn't transpose (we're talking medieval music) so music theory has been hugely in the total series. Further, modes are kind of limited to 7 scales, all built around the Major scale pattern (Ionian, for purists). Tonal music uses more Baroque, Classical, and Romantic concepts of the major and minor scales. And it's quite arguable that other than the very liberal 20th century composers, most of the popular music on the radio waves are descendents of the tonal series.

And yeah, piano's the way to go for a general sense, though I've been learning theory the way a person working with a fretboard (guitar, mandolin, etc) learns, and it's quite a different take on the rules I know already from my piano theory.

Also, from personal teaching, I have students that don't play piano, but rather just a string instrument or even a wind. They need to have supplementary knowledge, such as techniques (string has up-bow vs down-bow, pizzicato, etc.) or a viola student will need to work with the alto/viola clef. I have a couple students that know how to read treble, bass, and viola clef, and they're on the beginning book. Rather impressive compared to others that learn just treble and bass and they're in the advanced levels.

Dr_Rez 03-19-2012 11:58 PM

All I can say I am yet to hear a piece of atonal music that I really thought was pleasing to the ear. Even 12 tone music seems very grating on the ear.

venjacques 03-20-2012 01:28 AM

Very true. There are two schools of thought there-

The first is that our ears have been trained to hear tonal music from the music from about 1400's to about the early 1900's. Atonal music and music using things such as quarter steps has sprung up. Because this is new to our ears, we don't care for it, similar to any new variety of something - food, art, etc. It takes time to adjust.

The other school of thought is that people like the ones we have now because they do sound good and aren't full of dissonances. The octave is a nice 2:1 (1:2) ratio. This is pleasing. A perfect fifth is 3:2. These are relatively simple. The more dissonant you get, the crazier the ratios. A perfect fourth is 4:3, while a minor second is 16:15. The most dissonant interval of the 12-tone language is the tritone (augmented 4th / diminished 5th). This is a ratio of 45:32 or 64:45. With the numbers alone, it's easy to see why dissonant intervals, and therefor atonal music, doesn't work well.

Further, researchers have found that newborn babies, when played lovely basic two-note harmonies, such as a perfect octave or perfect fifth have been relatively passive, but when played more dissonant intervals have been found to have elevated heart rate, and have become more uncomfortable. We're talking newborns here, so there's something to be said about nature vs. nurture.

As far as the realm goes with "we're just not used to it yet", a terrible argument is "we're not used to eating rat poison either". ;)

blastingas10 03-20-2012 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venjacques (Post 1166903)
What kind of theory level are you talking, balstingas10?

There are many kinds of books, so consider level, instrument, and purpose at least.

Level can be beginner, intermediate, advance, and then something like.. the 20th century stuff where composers are still making up rules and all.

Instrument can matter. For example, a guitar teacher teaching guitar theory will approach the subject differently than would a flute teacher teaching flute theory. If you're not learning a specific instrument (or many), then piano theory is a safe bet, since everything is based on the musical keyboard's layout, and it's easy to make chords, play scales, and all that.

Purpose is also a defining factor. Do you want to be a composer? You'll have to know a lot of theory. If you want to learn drums, then you might not need scales or chords, as the drums doesn't have a way to really play a traditional scale or chord.

So anyway, can you narrow it down before we recommend something your way? :) Thanks!


Well I'm around an intermediate level guitarist. I know a bit of theory but I'm really a beginner when it comes to that. So what I'm looking for is a beginners to music theory for guitar, or guitar theory I guess is what I should say. I don't want to be a composer, I just want to know they theory behind guitar.

venjacques 03-20-2012 02:22 AM

Sadly I don't know much about guitar theory books. The one I'm using, I do recommend, but it's kind of a tunnel-vision recommendation; it's all I know. It's called Fretboard Theory by Desi Serna. It goes from teaching you the pentatonic scale and chord shapes, which are the huge basic building blocks of creating any scale and chords.

When you boil it down, guitar is just the sum of scales and chords. If you know your patterns, you can move them up and down the fret board and recreate them in any key, and it'll work well. This book's approach is nice because it tells you how it all ties together as well as gives you plenty of examples of popular music which show each topic discussed.

Rubato 03-20-2012 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RezZ (Post 1166962)
All I can say I am yet to hear a piece of atonal music that I really thought was pleasing to the ear. Even 12 tone music seems very grating on the ear.

One does not simply start listening to 12 tone music. Most of the well known pieces are far removed from traditional convention so you need to look for it in its milder forms. Order is not demanded by the object, but by the subject, it's only through exposure that you'll find coherence in the more intemperate forms.


mr dave 03-20-2012 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastingas10 (Post 1166986)
Well I'm around an intermediate level guitarist. I know a bit of theory but I'm really a beginner when it comes to that. So what I'm looking for is a beginners to music theory for guitar, or guitar theory I guess is what I should say. I don't want to be a composer, I just want to know they theory behind guitar.

Can you give an example of what sort of theory you're looking to grasp? Just basics on voicings and how the notes and chords relate (something I can handle)? Or something more substantial like how chords and scales are actually formed and stuff about modes (something for GB)?

blastingas10 03-20-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave (Post 1167056)
Can you give an example of what sort of theory you're looking to grasp? Just basics on voicings and how the notes and chords relate (something I can handle)? Or something more substantial like how chords and scales are actually formed and stuff about modes (something for GB)?

I honestly don't even know. I want to learn everything from the basics to the more complex things.

I'm not satisfied with just knowing scales and chords. Like you said, I'd like to know how notes and chords relate And how chords and scales are formed. I want to know everything from a to z. I know that's a big order.

KJones 03-20-2012 11:59 AM

I've been waiting for one of these threads. Hmmm..

Are there any harmonic functions that sound pleasing to the ear outside of I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii (or dim)?

I do know that there is a function where the dominant of the minor scale is turned major or dominant 7th, but are there any harmonic patterns that give a really good cadence and progression with 9th's, 11th's or even better #5 or #6 chords?

KJones 03-20-2012 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarv (Post 1167189)
does anyone know what you call it when you play a tonic triad really quickly on a piano? as quick as a flam on snare but on piano, 1,3,5. i hope that makes sense

Staccato. If it is played loud and fast it can also be called an accent.

Rubato 03-20-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJones (Post 1167168)
I've been waiting for one of these threads. Hmmm..

Are there any harmonic functions that sound pleasing to the ear outside of I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii (or dim)?

I do know that there is a function where the dominant of the minor scale is turned major or dominant 7th, but are there any harmonic patterns that give a really good cadence and progression with 9th's, 11th's or even better #5 or #6 chords?

Almost every chord possible has a place in a key, you just need to pay attention to the root movements and follow the tendency of the leading tones.

http://i41.tinypic.com/20kd5x3.jpg

Here vi is replaced by VI, with the progression VI-ii or V-i in D minor or respelled V/ii-ii in C Major, it can be considered an extension of ii, every chord can be preceded by it's dominant/dominant 7th provided it doesn't establish itself as a new tonic, inserting a non-diatonic minor would follow the the same model as it would as ii in it's own key, diminished as ii in minor and augmented as III in minor.

here V is substituted for an augmented chord where the D# leads easily to E. The augmented 6th is a little different, following its role as subdominant in minor with a raised root usualy with an added 7th to avoid doubling the third.

http://i40.tinypic.com/34zg3cw.jpg

Burning Down 03-20-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJones (Post 1167168)
I've been waiting for one of these threads. Hmmm..

Are there any harmonic functions that sound pleasing to the ear outside of I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii (or dim)?

I do know that there is a function where the dominant of the minor scale is turned major or dominant 7th, but are there any harmonic patterns that give a really good cadence and progression with 9th's, 11th's or even better #5 or #6 chords?

Definitely! There's plenty... hang on though. I'll come back here with some good examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarv (Post 1167189)
does anyone know what you call it when you play a tonic triad really quickly on a piano? as quick as a flam on snare but on piano, 1,3,5. i hope that makes sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJones (Post 1167192)
Staccato. If it is played loud and fast it can also be called an accent.

Staccato is something completely different - it's a type of articulation just like accents, tenuto, slurs, ties, etc. I think what that person is referring to is called a roll, but I'm not entirely sure as piano is not my main instrument.

venjacques 03-20-2012 12:55 PM

Blastingas10 -
It sounds like you're now talking about learning the building blocks of music. You'll have to start with the basics then. I'm not sure if you know what makes a chord major and what makes a chord minor. There are some series about this, and they may be a good start (workbooks and all so you can actually make your own, rather than just read about it).

There's an 11-book series I teach from, called the Basics of Keyboard Theory by Julie McIntosh Johnson. I do NOT recommend these. A large portion exercises are rather pointless, the explanations on how to do things are very confusing and/or wrong, and the books are littered with typos.

In hopes for a better book, I made mine. You can find it via my website. It assumes you know nothing about music, so it might be too basic for you. It's a first level book and will teach you how to make any major / minor chord, how basic key signatures work, terms in traditional music, rhythm notation, and scales and how they function. It's filled with exercises that work, and I've had positive reviews.

When I was learning theory in college, we used a text book / workbook series called Tonal Harmony by Stefan Kostka and Dorothy Payne. This series is nice too, and then would give you just one book that teaches quite a bit, but may be hard to grasp. The good news is, you have a place to post questions if you're ever in doubt. :)

---------------------------------


Scarv-
A heavier accent is called a sforzando.

Burning Down 03-20-2012 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJones (Post 1167168)
I do know that there is a function where the dominant of the minor scale is turned major or dominant 7th, but are there any harmonic patterns that give a really good cadence and progression with 9th's, 11th's or even better #5 or #6 chords?

Here. This is from my own homework so the work is not exactly stellar, but it gets the point across.

9th, 11th, and 13th chords are 7th chords with added dissonance. Sorry, the resolution of the image is not the greatest, it's the best I could do though :o:

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...dissonance.png

As you can see, I've written a descending 5ths sequence, and have alternated 9/7 chords with other 7th chords.

Now here's an 11th chord used in a cadential progression (which is what you wanted to know).

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...issonance2.png

And a 13th chord:

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...issonance3.png

By #6 chords, did you mean augmented 6th chords? There are three types (French, German, and Italian) and they work really nicely as pre-dominant chords in a V-I cadence. Here's a French 6th acting as a pre-dominant in a minor key. The top example shows the more typical use of the iiø4/3, and then in the second example you can see that I've replaced it with a French 6th chord:

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...ch6thchord.png

Here's a French 6th in a major key:

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/a...inmajorkey.png

You can also use the bII6 chord (AKA the Phrygian II or Neapolitan 6th chord) as a pre-dominant harmony in a cadential progression. This is a chord that is built on the flattened supertonic (scale degree 2 of the key), and is almost always written in first inversion.

venjacques 03-20-2012 02:53 PM

Burning Down - excellent rendition. I wanted to point out that the Neapolitan chord can be written as N6.

Further, "pleasing to the ear" is so subjective, it's almost an unfair question.

In a composition, you are the master and you get to call the shots. Your whole thing can be basically a chord progression of:

||: i II iii IV v VI :||

Part of what makes a composition nice to listen to is its predictability. If you repeat a phrase a bunch (not too much where it's totally minimalistic, but some), then the listener can predict what's coming and they get a sense of they know what to expect. So you can establish a section like this ('A'). Then you have contrasting music - varied by the chord progression, rhythm, melody, dynamics, or a combination of these and others. If you then bring back the A section, it'll sound familiar and pleasing to the listener because it's something they recognize.

The only reason some things may sound better to your ears than others is because in common practice, certain progressions are done so frequently. I vi IV V and I IV V I are very common examples (rock n' roll and doo-wop are good examples of utilizing common chord progressions like this).

If you want to sound like everyone else, use these progressions. They work, and they're familiar to the populous of the world. If you want to have your own voice, do something different and make it work your own way. Then you'll be a distinguished artist that carves their own path through the artistic realm of music.

Salami 03-20-2012 03:39 PM

I'm going to say that I'm absolutely delighted to take back my previous words in the suggestion thread - you've really put incredible effort into this and I'm genuinely pleased about this. You've contributed more to the site in these last few days than some people do in 6,000 posts.
I'm happy to eat my words - this is working incredibly well and is clearly a good resource.

KJones 03-20-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down (Post 1167218)
Definitely! There's plenty... hang on though. I'll come back here with some good examples.




Staccato is something completely different - it's a type of articulation just like accents, tenuto, slurs, ties, etc. I think what that person is referring to is called a roll, but I'm not entirely sure as piano is not my main instrument.

Oh so THAT is what he meant. Hmmm.

Btw. Thanks, these progressions will work just nicely. See, I got the theory down pat, but sometimes finding a nice cadence or two is difficult, at least for this budding musician.

Burning Down 03-20-2012 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venjacques (Post 1167285)
Burning Down - excellent rendition. I wanted to point out that the Neapolitan chord can be written as N6.

Thanks! N6 is also right, but I don't write it that way when doing a Roman numeral analysis of my work. I prefer writing bII6 or natural II6 (depending on the key).

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJones (Post 1167296)
Oh so THAT is what he meant. Hmmm.

Btw. Thanks, these progressions will work just nicely. See, I got the theory down pat, but sometimes finding a nice cadence or two is difficult, at least for this budding musician.

You're welcome!

venjacques 03-20-2012 07:04 PM

KJones - As far as cadences are concerned, you have 4 standard options-

V to I is called "Authentic"
IV to I is called "Plagal"
Anything ending on a V is called "Half"
And then the Deceptive is V (usually anyway) to a vi chord. The V-vi, when done is a major key is awesome, because it gives you the anticipation for the traditional V - I, but then instead of going to the nice Tonic, it throws you into the relative minor. I tell my students it's like your mom saying "ooo we're going to Disney Land (I) with all this anticipation building up (V) with your mickey mouse ears on, your autograph book in hand, your whole day planned out as far as what you're going to go on, see, do, etc. And then where does she take you? THE FREAKING DENTIST! (vi)"

It sounds really cool though when you think the piece is just going to finish up and gets into some authentic cadences V I V I V I V I Etc and then all of a sudden a V vi and the piece really opens up into a roller coaster of a ride through minor. It's pretty impressive when executed correctly.

If you want something original, just end your phrase on something else. Maybe ii to iii. You can call this the KJones Cadence. Just make up your own, really. If you make up your own system of rules, you'll have a quick pallet from which to pull a lot of material that'll all sound unique as your own sound.

------

Salami - Thanks for the comment. Very nice to read that! :)

------

Burning Down - I'm very lazy when it comes to analyzing music. N6 is only like..3 pen strokes. bII6 is more to write for me (like 6 whole strokes!) and so... I don't use it. :P

lecterz12 03-22-2012 11:53 AM

hey! all of you earth speak please! darn! are those really music theories?! it sounded like philosophical theories! darn!! i got a question, in creating a song, which is the best, find a tune and notes first or compose the whole thing and find the tune and notes later?!


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:58 AM.


© 2003-2024 Advameg, Inc.