Moderators who can't recognize spam

Burning Down · 10-04-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

(sigh) Yes I am fabulously wealthy. But you know, I'd give it all up for just a little more....

Bobo?

Urban Hat€monger ? · 10-04-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I wish moderators would consistently take an "innocent until proven guilty" stance toward members with respect to the rule against joining just to promote their own music or someone else's...and even if the person is "guilty," still treat her or him respectfully.

I'm sure you would, but i'm sure pretty much all the people on here would rather this stuff was gotten rid of as not to clog up the forum instead.
I'm not sure you even realise how much of this stuff gets deleted every day.

There used to be a promotions section. the community as a whole voted for it to be gotten rid of because it just encouraged people to spam.

The rules are this way because thats the way the members here wanted them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Midnight_spree's feedback is actually a good thing because it shows she or he has hope that the concern will be listened to and has not given up hope that the moderators will be fair and decent.

We get rid of hundreds of 'Midnight_spree's' every week. Just because one decides to come back and complain doesn't mean they have a point or a genuine concern.

Mojo · 10-04-2012, 03:06 PM

I understand your point, Vegan, but I don't think you understand the scale of the spam we receive and subsequently delete.

You may think of any members that sign up here, discuss, mention or link their music within their first few posts while genuinely doing so without intention to exclusively spam our forum. You may think of the existence of these members and have concerns that we would treat these members the same as everyone else, spammer wise, and you may think that this not fair. I understand that.

However the fact of the matter is that a lot of accounts are made here every day, every week, every month and I would say that the vast majority of accounts made are spam accounts. When a new account is made I will go and check their first few posts. If their very first action as a member of this forum is to talk about their music, name their band, ask for feedback on their music and try to get you to click an external link or google their band name then I will delete their posts and ban their account. 99.9% of the time that member will have been correctly banned and on the rare occasions that I would be wrong, I would apologise If I felt it were necessary.

What is the alternative though? Should we air on the side of caution? Should we give these members a day or two so we can be completely, 100% certain that they arent also here to contribute to the forum? Personally, no, I dont think we should. This would lead to a huge number of threads from people who only want you to listen to their music, who only want to use our forum for this reason and if we didn't clear them out right away then it would only promote this on our site and lead to an even greater number of users signing up for the very same reasons. If we did this and adopted your attitude or took your approach then, with all due respect once more, we and yourself would spend way too much time attempting to engage members in conversation when they a) dont care aslong as you click their link and b) may never even see your post because once they have spammed they may never even log into their account ever again.

I trust Urbans judgement. He's been here long enough to know a spammer when he sees one. If he had banned an account for spam and then realised he had made a mistake I'm sure he would come clean about it and put it right. Even if it is the case that this member did not come here to spam, they claim, then they could have made another accoun and messaged a moderator to straighten things out. Coming back with an attitude like this isnt gonna help to convince me that they were here for a genuine reason to begin with or had anything to contribute to the forum I am trusted to moderate and use my judgement to keep in order. Basically if it is possible for a moderator to think that you may be a spammer, then you obviously didn't choose your first few posts well.

I may not have made the decision to post what Vanilla posted but believe me, I was thinking it. I'm sorry if this member was one of the 0.01%, and I assure you that I use my judgement on this forum in a genuine attempt to be as fair as I possibly can be, but for the reasons I gave above and for their overall attitude and etiquette, I share her sentiment. And I don't feel bad about it.

LoathsomePete · 10-04-2012, 03:12 PM

If the mod team were to take just 3 days off from deleting any spam, the forum would look like this.

Nobody interested in talking about music, just endless threads of "come listen to my band and tell me how good it is!" and that's not what this forum is for. This isn't a conduit for you to use to gain exposure, it's for music nerds to congregate and discuss which is Radiohead's best album. There's a plethora of websites for you to use to get exposure, but only a small sliver of them dedicated to honest discussion. I like to think that MusicBanter is the top Google hit for music forums because of quality.

Burning Down · 10-04-2012, 03:27 PM

I can only imagine what this "solution" would be like on my old forum (an REM fan forum), where the majority of spam that I and other mods had to delete daily was grotesque porn stuff.

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 10-04-2012, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Here you go, I shortened the post for you:

* * * * * * * * * * *

Moderators, this thread and Vanilla's post remind me that I want to raise a concern with all of you, which is that some of the rules are not enforced consistently or even followed consistently by moderators themselves, such as our site's first rule:

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts or members deliberately provoking another member into committing any of these acts.

It often seems to me that the main job of moderators here is to delete posts that contain advertisements, and I can imagine that is a big job. I see the clean-up in action and do appreciate it. Using MusicBanter to banter about music in a substantive way would be much harder if the posts of people who join only to advertise or promote weren't cleaned up. So, thank you, Mods, for that.

Yet I feel the occasional nasty comments by moderators and some members are much more harmful to the community than "spam" is. When I see moderators are breaking one rule while telling people to follow another, I no longer trust any of the moderators because I don't trust them to police each other or themselves.

For example, Vanilla, I wish you wouldn't tell midnight-spree that he can **** off. If you really *are* drunk when you are posting, then I think it would be better if you wait until you aren't, because I feel you are violating the first rule of MusicBanter by being intentionally rude and hurtful: "We will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts."

Midnight_spree's feedback is actually a good thing because it shows she or he has hope that the concern will be listened to and that the moderators will be fair and decent.

Right so one comment about a BANNED spammer and suddenly I'm unfit to moderate? Get real, the spam we as a team have to get rid of in our own time is ridiculous but yet no one is complaining. And honey, you can complain all you like but there's nothing wrong with the system.

Mojo, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who felt that.

Guybrush · 10-05-2012, 05:10 AM

I too feel that it's a moderators job to abide by the rules he or she enforces and to keep an eye on other moderators that they do the same. To me it's obvious that the more you break the rules, the less fit you are to moderate.

So it goes without saying that I think moderators should be more careful than the rest of us when it comes to dishing out insults. When I first read this thread, I have to say I thought Janszoon did a fantastic job as a moderator, being diplomatic and approachable, treating the concern seriously, taking time to write proper replies etc. I and others notice this and it reflects positively on the whole mod team. Vanilla's contribution to the thread, however, is little else than making the mods seem a little worse (opposite of Jans' approach, being dismissive, undiplomatic, offensive).

I really like you Vanilla and I'm sorry to offend you, but it's how I feel. I'm not saying you shouldn't be a moderator, only that you should not forget to also moderate yourself.

edit :

I'm not just thinking of the "he can **** off" comment in this thread. Erica addressed a concern which you initially responded to like this :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

I'm sorry but tl;dr.

Which is dismissive, unapproachable and very disrespectful when someone turns to you with what they think is a legitimate concern.

Rjinn · 10-05-2012, 05:51 AM

I'm going to speak as an experienced moderator of a big forum site, it was paramount to be an example of our rules to all members. However, I may see the difference being a Namco business/help/product advertising site to a general site for music, so strictness was unwavering.

Honestly I can understand the frustration of members constantly questioning and arguing over decisions and actions, it can be hell. However we always were approachable enough to respond reasonably without any aggression and in a calm collective manner.

Moderators here at least don't have double standards. They may not be strict, but I don't see them treating others' responses differently than the way they treat theirs. So far, I see this forum being run efficiently with very little loss of control. That's the most important thing.

Guybrush · 10-05-2012, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rjinn

I'm going to speak as an experienced moderator of a big forum site, it was paramount to be an example of our rules to all members.

I think this is important on any forum as, in my experience, the way moderators behave has a very strong influence on general forum culture and how community members interact with each other.

Also, I think behaving in a thoughtful, calculated, diplomatic manner garners respect - likely for the right reasons too.

Trollheart · 10-05-2012, 09:09 AM

(Climbing on white charger... where's me lance? Oh, there he is! Come on, Lance!)

While most of you are quietly berating Vanilla for her response --- and I agree, it was not appropriate, particularly in a somewhat flammable atmosphere as was the case here --- I would like to point out that in my view it was a RARE lapse in judgement, which Vanilla will probably agree is the case, and she should not be taken too much to task over it. We all know how good a mod she is, and one little slip should not call into question her fitness for the job she has already proven without arguement that she can carry off in a fair yet strict manner, always being mindful of the feelings of others.

Plus, she said she was drunk. Who hasn't done something they don't regret while under the influence? (How did I get this traffic cone? I wasn't even OUT last night??)

So basically, it's one mistake and I think should be accepted as such. It's not like she's forever going around doing things like this and regularly abusing members, new or old. Personally, I'd trust her as I would any of the mods here, comment notwithstanding.

10-04-2012, 03:06 PM	#33 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	I understand your point, Vegan, but I don't think you understand the scale of the spam we receive and subsequently delete. You may think of any members that sign up here, discuss, mention or link their music within their first few posts while genuinely doing so without intention to exclusively spam our forum. You may think of the existence of these members and have concerns that we would treat these members the same as everyone else, spammer wise, and you may think that this not fair. I understand that. However the fact of the matter is that a lot of accounts are made here every day, every week, every month and I would say that the vast majority of accounts made are spam accounts. When a new account is made I will go and check their first few posts. If their very first action as a member of this forum is to talk about their music, name their band, ask for feedback on their music and try to get you to click an external link or google their band name then I will delete their posts and ban their account. 99.9% of the time that member will have been correctly banned and on the rare occasions that I would be wrong, I would apologise If I felt it were necessary. What is the alternative though? Should we air on the side of caution? Should we give these members a day or two so we can be completely, 100% certain that they arent also here to contribute to the forum? Personally, no, I dont think we should. This would lead to a huge number of threads from people who only want you to listen to their music, who only want to use our forum for this reason and if we didn't clear them out right away then it would only promote this on our site and lead to an even greater number of users signing up for the very same reasons. If we did this and adopted your attitude or took your approach then, with all due respect once more, we and yourself would spend way too much time attempting to engage members in conversation when they a) dont care aslong as you click their link and b) may never even see your post because once they have spammed they may never even log into their account ever again. I trust Urbans judgement. He's been here long enough to know a spammer when he sees one. If he had banned an account for spam and then realised he had made a mistake I'm sure he would come clean about it and put it right. Even if it is the case that this member did not come here to spam, they claim, then they could have made another accoun and messaged a moderator to straighten things out. Coming back with an attitude like this isnt gonna help to convince me that they were here for a genuine reason to begin with or had anything to contribute to the forum I am trusted to moderate and use my judgement to keep in order. Basically if it is possible for a moderator to think that you may be a spammer, then you obviously didn't choose your first few posts well. I may not have made the decision to post what Vanilla posted but believe me, I was thinking it. I'm sorry if this member was one of the 0.01%, and I assure you that I use my judgement on this forum in a genuine attempt to be as fair as I possibly can be, but for the reasons I gave above and for their overall attitude and etiquette, I share her sentiment. And I don't feel bad about it. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust

10-04-2012, 03:12 PM	#34 (permalink)
LoathsomePete Cardboard Box Realtor Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Hobb's End Posts: 7,648	If the mod team were to take just 3 days off from deleting any spam, the forum would look like this. Nobody interested in talking about music, just endless threads of "come listen to my band and tell me how good it is!" and that's not what this forum is for. This isn't a conduit for you to use to gain exposure, it's for music nerds to congregate and discuss which is Radiohead's best album. There's a plethora of websites for you to use to get exposure, but only a small sliver of them dedicated to honest discussion. I like to think that MusicBanter is the top Google hit for music forums because of quality. __________________ Last.FM 101 Albums That May Not Change Your Life, But I Really Like And You Might Too

10-05-2012, 05:51 AM	#38 (permalink)
Rjinn The Aerosol in your Soul Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 1,546	I'm going to speak as an experienced moderator of a big forum site, it was paramount to be an example of our rules to all members. However, I may see the difference being a Namco business/help/product advertising site to a general site for music, so strictness was unwavering. Honestly I can understand the frustration of members constantly questioning and arguing over decisions and actions, it can be hell. However we always were approachable enough to respond reasonably without any aggression and in a calm collective manner. Moderators here at least don't have double standards. They may not be strict, but I don't see them treating others' responses differently than the way they treat theirs. So far, I see this forum being run efficiently with very little loss of control. That's the most important thing. __________________ last.fm Last edited by Rjinn; 10-05-2012 at 05:59 AM.

10-05-2012, 09:09 AM	#40 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	(Climbing on white charger... where's me lance? Oh, there he is! Come on, Lance!) While most of you are quietly berating Vanilla for her response --- and I agree, it was not appropriate, particularly in a somewhat flammable atmosphere as was the case here --- I would like to point out that in my view it was a RARE lapse in judgement, which Vanilla will probably agree is the case, and she should not be taken too much to task over it. We all know how good a mod she is, and one little slip should not call into question her fitness for the job she has already proven without arguement that she can carry off in a fair yet strict manner, always being mindful of the feelings of others. Plus, she said she was drunk. Who hasn't done something they don't regret while under the influence? (How did I get this traffic cone? I wasn't even OUT last night??) So basically, it's one mistake and I think should be accepted as such. It's not like she's forever going around doing things like this and regularly abusing members, new or old. Personally, I'd trust her as I would any of the mods here, comment notwithstanding. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

10-04-2012, 03:27 PM	#35 (permalink)
Burning Down The Music Guru. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Beyond the Wall Posts: 4,858	I can only imagine what this "solution" would be like on my old forum (an REM fan forum), where the majority of spam that I and other mods had to delete daily was grotesque porn stuff.