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Old 05-04-2021, 10:17 PM   #6951 (permalink)
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But how?

You're not explaining how collectivizing in it's self caused a lack of resources, just what they did with the resources once they collected them.

Resources don't just magically disappear when you gather them together. If distributed properly at most it thins it out across the population. So it wouldn't be collectivization in it's self but what they did when they gathered all of their resources. Like selling the resources to build industry.

Or am I missing something?
The irony is that the Russian peasants lived in small small agrarian communes that certain russian socialists took inspiration from in the late 19th/early 20th century. There were even attempts to indoctrinate them into marxist thought but the peasants were not particularly receptive to these attempts. The thought process was that they already existed in a sort of primitive form of communism so they would be the perfect recruits for such a movement. Problem being that while they might trust their neighbor enough to throw in together they don't trust a larger collective on a national scale. Such a concept is just utterly alien to someone who has always lives in a small tight knit community.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:39 PM   #6952 (permalink)
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The irony is that the Russian peasants lived in small small agrarian communes that certain russian socialists took inspiration from in the late 19th/early 20th century. There were even attempts to indoctrinate them into marxist thought but the peasants were not particularly receptive to these attempts. The thought process was that they already existed in a sort of primitive form of communism so they would be the perfect recruits for such a movement. Problem being that while they might trust their neighbor enough to throw in together they don't trust a larger collective on a national scale. Such a concept is just utterly alien to someone who has always lives in a small tight knit community.
Yeah there was actually an anarchist movement kind of at the same time as the Bolsheviks and years before who wanted to go to the peasants and educate them to make a peasant revolution possible and it went exactly as well as you might imagine a bunch of college kids moving into peasant farms and trying to educate those peasants on socialism might go.

And so those college kids were like hey this isn't working so why don't we just start planting bombs to kill rich people?
?
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Old 05-05-2021, 12:32 AM   #6953 (permalink)
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LOL I mixed them up. Yeah, you're right. Lenin is still in idiot though. In my opinion.
he's far from an idiot.

He had a fairly well articulated interpretation of marxism.. and he saw a clear opportunity for revolution in 1917... He was fully aware the conditions in russia weren't ideal but when you see a window you either take it or sit back and hope the country will gradually industrialize through capitalism and then another window will arise. You willing to make that bet? A window hasn't arisen in any of the other countries that allowed the stage of capitalism to take its course... Still waiting. Like the Christians still waiting for Jesus to come back.

Before you call lenin or even the bolsheviks in general stupid put yourself in their shoes and tell me how you usher 1917 russia into a successful communist utopia...
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:03 AM   #6954 (permalink)
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Strictly regulated private industry like China is doing right now.

Or Vietnam.

Both have gone through significant growth in doing so.

Oh, and perhaps don't be so authoritarian and consider the rights of the people that the ideology is built around.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:34 AM   #6955 (permalink)
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China is no less authoritarian than the soviets lol

They're just more capitalist
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:55 AM   #6956 (permalink)
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China is no less authoritarian than the soviets lol

They're just more capitalist
I didn't say they weren't. Vietnam is authoritarian too. Just saying I wouldn't be.

The soviets banned good music which is much worse than the Holodomor.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 05-05-2021, 02:06 AM   #6957 (permalink)
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Yeah it's just you contradicted yourself... Be like China except less authoritarian... Basically western capitalism?


Keep in mind the question was how to usher in communism. You really think China is any closer to that goal than the soviets ever were??
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:02 AM   #6958 (permalink)
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Yeah it's just you contradicted yourself... Be like China except less authoritarian... Basically western capitalism?


Keep in mind the question was how to usher in communism. You really think China is any closer to that goal than the soviets ever were??
Not really, I said adopt this one thing China is doing. Which is kind of an authoritarian way of doing capitalism but not authoritarian across the board.

Right now? No. Because they started over. But they have more of an advantage than the Soviets did when they first started. Are you arguing that the USSR industrialized better than modern China?
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 05-05-2021, 12:59 PM   #6959 (permalink)
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the way China does capitalism is a form of the way the US did it until we got richer than Britain

Free Market Capitalism gets you crushed by other nations unless you've used the state to manuever yourself into a bargaining position
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:20 PM   #6960 (permalink)
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And at this point if the US weren't such a capitalist worshipping dystopia and we were to start trying to transition into socialism/communism we could probably succeed or at the very least do it better than the soviets.

It's not like we have another America to try and destroy us at every turn. China wants communism and Russia doesn't seem to care.

We could honestly boost our slowly failing empire by forcing private industry to actually pay workers and treat them like human beings.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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