Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > Announcements, Suggestions, & Feedback
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-04-2021, 01:45 PM   #6941 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,909
Default

But how?

You're not explaining how collectivizing in it's self caused a lack of resources, just what they did with the resources once they collected them.

Resources don't just magically disappear when you gather them together. If distributed properly at most it thins it out across the population. So it wouldn't be collectivization in it's self but what they did when they gathered all of their resources. Like selling the resources to build industry.

Or am I missing something?
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 02:15 PM   #6942 (permalink)
No Ice In My Bourbon
 
SoundgardenRocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA, USA, USA!
Posts: 2,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre View Post
But how?

You're not explaining how collectivizing in it's self caused a lack of resources, just what they did with the resources once they collected them.

Resources don't just magically disappear when you gather them together. If distributed properly at most it thins it out across the population. So it wouldn't be collectivization in it's self but what they did when they gathered all of their resources. Like selling the resources to build industry.

Or am I missing something?
Obviously, as we've already touched on, state collectivization - taking by force from agricultural owners - causes resentment, distrust, and antipathy. Like a factory worker today, the laborer on the collectivized farm is just as, if not more alienated from the fruits of their labor. This undoubtedly results in a lack of incentive to be more productive than necessary. When people are forced to work and aren't often allowed control of their surpluses, they look to avoid that work at every turn.

Central planning does not do an effective job at reacting to local conditions. Those in power did not understand to the extent that they needed to properly plan for the plots of the land that they used in collectivized farming, unlike the local farmers that previously owned those plots of lands. They had a prototypical set up that they used that was cookie-cutter pasted across the country without regards or changes to best capitalize on local conditions. Most of the time, party members made decisions on the collectivized farms, even if they weren't the best qualified ones to make those decisions.

Another problem with big collectivized farms is that they were almost all met with diseconomy of scale issues (whereas the Soviet party members believed it would be an economy of scale). What this meant in practice is that these big collective farms produced less food per worker than the smaller farms did. The problems caused by the large collectivized farms were greater than the benefits that the party higher ups imagined there would be. Obviously, that's not an economically effective model in the long run.

Not to mention, if I recall correctly, many of the people in charge of these collectivized farming operations were no strangers to fudging numbers to "meet" production quotas - lest they wished to be punished.

In short, my position is that locally owned private farms would have produced more resources in the timeframe than collectivized farms did - it's just that the yields wouldn't have been in control of the state - which would've made it harder for them to use as exports to fund rapid industrialization - which was the whole point anyway.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre View Post
Resources don't just magically disappear when you gather them together. If distributed properly at most it thins it out across the population. So it wouldn't be collectivization in it's self but what they did when they gathered all of their resources.
Just to be clear, the policies of collectivization did not just entail letting the farmers do as they had been doing and the government lackeys coming by every month to pick up their share of the yield, it involved the amalgamation of what was indivdually owned and run property and land into state owned and run property and land. The government did not run it effectively.

Last edited by SoundgardenRocks; 05-04-2021 at 02:34 PM.
SoundgardenRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 05:22 PM   #6943 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre View Post
I don't really get it. How much of the manifesto did Lenin write? Because the manifesto very clearly states that capitalism is important when it comes to industrializing a country to the point where socialism is viable.

After China failed by making the same exact mistake even they said "we shouldn't have skipped capitalism" because they're Marxist. Lenin literally helped write the goddamn book they got that from. Is Lenin stupid or something?


Edit: There is literally only 3 things that The Communist Manifesto makes clear. 1) Capitalism is **** and we need a new revolution to save us from the oppression of capitalism. 2) But we actually needed capitalism to save us from feudalism and introduce industry to provide us with an abundance to make utopia viable. 3) Our revolution has to come from the proletariat because bourgeois socialism is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
bruh the manifesto was written in 1848 by marx and engels... Give your head a shake
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/
jwb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 06:03 PM   #6944 (permalink)
Willowy Elven Boy
 
elphenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: This Synth Kills Fascists
Posts: 13,793
Default

lol
__________________
Just another marketing ploy

Quote:
Are beehives and ant colonies unnatural? Cause they cooperate on a level we could hardly dream of.
elphenor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 06:24 PM   #6945 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 44,926
Default

I guess he's thinking of What Is to Be Done?
__________________
CHINA IS CAPITALIST
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 07:00 PM   #6946 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,909
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwb View Post
bruh the manifesto was written in 1848 by marx and engels... Give your head a shake
LOL I mixed them up. Yeah, you're right. Lenin is still in idiot though. In my opinion.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 07:08 PM   #6947 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,909
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks View Post
Obviously, as we've already touched on, state collectivization - taking by force from agricultural owners - causes resentment, distrust, and antipathy. Like a factory worker today, the laborer on the collectivized farm is just as, if not more alienated from the fruits of their labor. This undoubtedly results in a lack of incentive to be more productive than necessary. When people are forced to work and aren't often allowed control of their surpluses, they look to avoid that work at every turn.

Central planning does not do an effective job at reacting to local conditions. Those in power did not understand to the extent that they needed to properly plan for the plots of the land that they used in collectivized farming, unlike the local farmers that previously owned those plots of lands. They had a prototypical set up that they used that was cookie-cutter pasted across the country without regards or changes to best capitalize on local conditions. Most of the time, party members made decisions on the collectivized farms, even if they weren't the best qualified ones to make those decisions.

Another problem with big collectivized farms is that they were almost all met with diseconomy of scale issues (whereas the Soviet party members believed it would be an economy of scale). What this meant in practice is that these big collective farms produced less food per worker than the smaller farms did. The problems caused by the large collectivized farms were greater than the benefits that the party higher ups imagined there would be. Obviously, that's not an economically effective model in the long run.

Not to mention, if I recall correctly, many of the people in charge of these collectivized farming operations were no strangers to fudging numbers to "meet" production quotas - lest they wished to be punished.

In short, my position is that locally owned private farms would have produced more resources in the timeframe than collectivized farms did - it's just that the yields wouldn't have been in control of the state - which would've made it harder for them to use as exports to fund rapid industrialization - which was the whole point anyway.

EDIT:



Just to be clear, the policies of collectivization did not just entail letting the farmers do as they had been doing and the government lackeys coming by every month to pick up their share of the yield, it involved the amalgamation of what was indivdually owned and run property and land into state owned and run property and land. The government did not run it effectively.
I can see how the way they did collectivism added to the famine now. So I'm just wrong and it probably was mostly the Soviet Union's **** policy rather than the drought.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 07:11 PM   #6948 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 44,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre View Post
I can see how the way they did collectivism added to the famine now. So I'm just wrong and it probably was mostly the Soviet Union's **** policy rather than the drought.
Also this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism
__________________
CHINA IS CAPITALIST
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 07:19 PM   #6949 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,909
Default

Dictators love their pseudoscience.

Edit: That's why OH thinks agency is scientifically disproven. Ohhhhhhhhhh I brought it full circle.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 07:24 PM   #6950 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 44,926
Default

If the circle is your gaping anus.
__________________
CHINA IS CAPITALIST
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2021 Advameg, Inc.