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Old 05-04-2021, 12:09 PM   #6931 (permalink)
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The initial cause of the famine was natural. Famines had been happening in that region periodically since long before 1917. It was the scale of the famine which was caused by policy.

You don't think collectivization leads to a lack of resources.... Well first of all the collectivization efforts were largely a failure. They expected to increase the crop u yields drastically and that didn't happen. They were going to use the surplus from the increased yields to export and use that money to buy machinery necessary for industrialization. Due to mitigating factors like the droughts as well as peasant resistance they actually saw a marked decrease in the crop yields. That didn't stop them from seizing said crops and exporting them any way in order to buy industrial machinery. If you don't see why that leads to more people starving then I dunno what to tell you pal. Additionally china had the largest famine in human history when they tried to mimick the soviet 5 year plan. Just a coincidence, I'm sure...
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:11 PM   #6932 (permalink)
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And OH is not wrong when saying that it's mostly due to the fact that Ukraine wouldn't give up private ownership so Stalin was trying to make an example of them.
You're talking about peasants that had lived in small agrarian communities for centuries. Is it hard to understand why they weren't eager to hand over the food that kept them alive for the good of a state that didn't give two ****s whether they live or die?
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:16 PM   #6933 (permalink)
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The initial cause of the famine was natural. Famines had been happening in that region periodically since long before 1917. It was the scale of the famine which was caused by policy.

You don't think collectivization leads to a lack of resources.... Well first of all the collectivization efforts were largely a failure. They expected to increase the crop u yields drastically and that didn't happen. They were going to use the surplus from the increased yields to export and use that money to buy machinery necessary for industrialization. Due to mitigating factors like the droughts as well as peasant resistance they actually saw a marked decrease in the crop yields. That didn't stop them from seizing said crops and exporting them any way in order to buy industrial machinery. If you don't see why that leads to more people starving then I dunno what to tell you pal. Additionally china had the largest famine in human history when they tried to mimick the soviet 5 year plan. Just a coincidence, I'm sure...
Okay, that actually makes sense. And the Lenin quote about prioritizing industry over the peasants or what ever he said makes more sense. Which is ironically fairly antisocialist imo.

And no, I don't think collectivization on it's own leads to a lack of resources.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:19 PM   #6934 (permalink)
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You're talking about peasants that had lived in small agrarian communities for centuries. Is it hard to understand why they weren't eager to hand over the food that kept them alive for the good of a state that didn't give two ****s whether they live or die?
Not really. Never really defended what the USSR did to Ukraine. In fact I said it was bigoted.

Even then, it's not hard to understand why anybody wouldn't want to give up private ownership in the first place when all they've known revolves around that idea.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 05-04-2021, 12:31 PM   #6935 (permalink)
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I don't really get it. How much of the manifesto did Lenin write? Because the manifesto very clearly states that capitalism is important when it comes to industrializing a country to the point where socialism is viable.

After China failed by making the same exact mistake even they said "we shouldn't have skipped capitalism" because they're Marxist. Lenin literally helped write the goddamn book they got that from. Is Lenin stupid or something?


Edit: There is literally only 3 things that The Communist Manifesto makes clear. 1) Capitalism is **** and we need a new revolution to save us from the oppression of capitalism. 2) But we actually needed capitalism to save us from feudalism and introduce industry to provide us with an abundance to make utopia viable. 3) Our revolution has to come from the proletariat because bourgeois socialism is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 05-04-2021, 12:55 PM   #6936 (permalink)
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Of course there's going to be people that say it was collectivization that caused the famine but to me it seems obvious that collectivization doesn't cause a lack of resources especially when the USSR had to go to the US to save them from starvation.
The USSR helped save the US from starvation? When? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:56 PM   #6937 (permalink)
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The USSR helped save the US from starvation? When? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?
Other way around lol.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:58 PM   #6938 (permalink)
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Other way around lol.
So because Russia has had famines before that weren't caused by collectivization and they required international assistance, that's good reason to believe that collectivization doesn't cause a lack of resources?

I'm still not getting where you're going with that.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:05 PM   #6939 (permalink)
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They didn't have the supply to feed their people so they had to beg the US to give them some food.

If they had the food to feed people why wouldn't they? How would collectivizing, in it's self, prevent them from having enough food to feed people?

NOW I understand that it's because they exported food, but that's not collectivization in it's self causing the famine it's what they did with it.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 05-04-2021, 01:30 PM   #6940 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre View Post
They didn't have the supply to feed their people so they had to beg the US to give them some food.

If they had the food to feed people why wouldn't they? How would collectivizing, in it's self, prevent them from having enough food to feed people?

NOW I understand that it's because they exported food, but that's not collectivization in it's self causing the famine it's what they did with it.
It sounds like you're conflating the reasons why they didn't have enough food in the 1921 famine with the reasons why they didn't have enough food in the 1931 famine. These were different situations with different causes.

In a perfect utopia where farmers simply willingly gave up their owership of property to the government, that would only solve one problem (successful kulak peasants burning their fields and slaughtering their livestock in revolt) - another problem is that of distribution. With the USSR being a centrally planned economy, that is one of the cruxes of the issues.

With the five year plan, the government came up with projections and figures based on current agricultural productivity that were optimistic, to put it generously. They indeed expected their policies of collectivization would increase agricultural productivity and result in a surplus, which would be used to pay for industrialization while maintaining the crop yields the people have had in recent times. Instead, the policy was a failure and resulted in much less agricultural productivity. The Soviet Union still used much of what they had to pay for industrialization, at the expense of human lives. So contrary to your point there, even if they hadn't decided to export the yields they got, the extremely diminished agricultural productivity (caused in large part by collectivization) would've still resulted in famine.
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