Janszoon

It feels like one of the main thrusts of your comment here is bit of a strawman. It's simply untrue that "there's no real system" or "no precedent, no guideline and no expectations". I understand that those things aren't as regimented as you'd prefer them to be, but that doesn't mean they don't exist at all. We do have rules, and while we may cut people more slack on them than you like, we do enforce them. Our enforcement also follows a fairly predictable pattern of warning -> infraction -> ban. There is room for context but I think that's as it should be.

To me, the system you're proposing adds extra complication without benefit to anyone. I don't agree that it would take responsibility away from the mods. They'd still be making judgement calls on how to apply the rules and would still be called to account every time they did so. And with the quantity of infractions increasing as per your system, that calling to account would be happening far more often.

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A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Trollheart

Yah but I don't care. I'm quite happy to be the whipping boy, as long as I know who it is that's doin' the whipping. Down, Roxy! Basically, what I mean is, I know that Batty,as the main culprit here, only does it because he knows I don't take offence, or if I do it's hilarious to him. He wouldn't actually say anything really hurtful to me. He knows how far he can go. To be honest, I've no problem with being called a twit, an arsehole, brain dead or mentally retarded, a wimp, a girl or a dickhead. As long as I know who's calling me those names and the context in which they're being made. I'd much rather any of the above in jest than be called a racist or a bully in earnest. That sort of namecalling does annoy me, especially when it has no foundation in truth. The difference is that namecalling can be done in a jokey, comradely way, and it really offends nobody. But under these new rules, mods would be forced to punish this "bad behaviour"?

Perhaps more importantly, and illustrating what I believe to be very clear flaws in your system, if Batty hadn't been allowed to be who he is (through infractions changing him; and assuming he stayed) I would never have got to know the kind of guy he is and we would not have become fast ... er ... people who post on the same site. It's the flaws that makes us what we are, and really, I think it's wrong to try to forcibly change people by hanging a Sword of Damocles over their heads.

Who's Robert Frick?
I would have to agree. I love this place but if it became stale and rigid like a military school or something I doubt I'd hang around. I would hope it wouldn't come to that; maybe I'd go back into hiding in my journals. But now that I've seen the bright lights, I'd wither like a hothouse flower back in there!
Yeah I agree. I'm all for quiet at home, but who's interested in a place where everyone quietly gets on with their threads on the internet? You need a bit of controversy, a bit of spice, a bit of danger and the odd knock-down argument to make it worthwhile. In other words, you need people like Batty.

Tore, you didn't address my point about "objectionable material". How would you deal with that? I see the "single word post" has been by consensus agreed to be dropped, but what about this and my other point? I'd like to know what your answer is.

To be honest, if I have a choice between a place I can come where I know I'll get some stick, but can give it back, where I'll have fun and know I have friends as well as the odd enemy, and some who aren't sure then I'll take that over a stale, stuffy, schoolroom-type environment such as you appear to be proposing, or which, if not intended, would certainly result if this idea were to be implemented.

Or to use your own analogy, given a choice between a playground where I can run around, scream and shout and take the risk of being beaten up, and a quiet time at the library where I'm afraid to even look up for fear of stern reprove, I'll take my chances in the former every time.

Edit: I should also add that it's almost 3AM here so if anyone posts and doesn't get a reply from me it's not because I'm a prick (well, I am, but it's not just because of that): I have to sleep. So I'll reply to any posts directed at me in the morning. Or afternoon. Early evening at latest. Maybe late evening.... zzzzzzzzzzzz

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Guybrush

I know there is a system of sorts here so what I was describing was a hypothetical situation ("if there is no precedent, no guideline and no expectations"). I didn't make that clear and I definitely should have. It's just when comparing things, it's easy and effective to discuss from the point of opposing extremes (total lack of system vs. full on system).

I do see you guys moderate the boards, moving discussions around and sometimes banning members like ghrwrathhrggfhr. Ultimately, I would like to discuss the topic without being negative towards the mod team because you deserve more pats on the back if anything and me and the members appreciate the work you do. It's just hard to discuss the details of moderation without arguing like you're putting down the current mod team and so for that I am sorry.

edit :

This is why you're still here. If you hated it, you would have left. And for every person who can cope, maybe there are three that can't be bothered.


I am not for a rigid military school. I am for a low level buzz of exciting rule breaking. I know very well that the best mates are the ones you can joke around with and make fun of now and then. That's not really what I want to change around here.


I don't know without an example. Today, I think album covers are generally okay, even if there are some gruesome ones out there (either way, being music, they're on topic). But a thread with pictures from porn scenes wouldn't.

I'm not really hurt in any way by gore or pornography and the like, so this rule is not to protect people like me specifically. I suspect Advameg, the owners, wants a site they can "sell" to the outside world and this is better achieved if it is not full of "filth". If a new system was to be implemented, one of the first thing to do would have to be a complete reevaluation / reworking of the rules. I don't know in what state that rule would exist after that.

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Something Completely Different

Trollheart

I'm awake again! Hel-loooooo world!
But the thing is, that's like someone coming into, say, an office environment where everyone slags the **** out of each other. Martin over there is a ginger so gets stick, Abdul is a devout muslim so we tease him, Sherry is a bit of a party girl and wears miniskirts so we all make the odd lewd comment. They all understand we are not being crass or racist and they accept and even enjoy this attention. And so on.

Now, into this office comes a new guy, Joe. Joe is not aware of the dynamic in the office. He's on work experience. Without bothering to get to know the people he's working with, Joe decides that everyone here is sexually harassing Sherry, trampling on Abdul's religious freedom and mocking Martin. He reports them all and asks for rules to be set in place so that this does not happen again.

What do you think the boss does?

The point is, that in a community such as this, you need, as a new member, to get to know people and how they operate. Batty is a prime example. At first, you'd think he was a dick, the way he goes on, but after a while, if you take the time to talk to him, you come to realise that he is in fact a dick. But he's our dick, and we know how to deal with him. Also, Batty would tend not to (I think) rib newcomers, as he doesn't know how that will be taken. He gives us **** (me mostly) because he knows I understand the context it's made in and I don't mind. Someone new might take offence, under your new rules, report him and the mods would have to infract him. Keep in mind, too, that this may be a member who has no intention of sticking around for long. So why does he get to say what happens instead of just digging in and seeing how the land lies?

To be honest, if you're talking about people who can't be bothered to stay around and see how people are, or talk to them if they offend them, then I'd say let them go, but I would not change the whole system for the sake of a minority.

But you can't have it both ways. What you are proposing is an enforcement of the rules than cannot be described any way other than draconian. It leaves little or no room for judgement and no leeway: the rules are absolute and must be applied. That is going to result in the kind of situation described above.
Well I gave you an example, but if you have to actually see it http://www.musicbanter.com/members-j...ml#post1500511

Now would that be allowed? Because it's in context, used in fun but it is very graphic. Yes, I could have spoilered the pictures but that would be sort of defeating the whole idea of the article (Satan does not use Spoilers!)

or there's my review of "Nazis at the Centre of the Earth", a stupid B-movie but which contains some really graphic gory pictures, one or two of which I used but spoilered. Given that both are integral to the articles, is there leeway within the rules to allow this? Can it be an unwritten rule "no gore or porno unless instrinsic to the writing"? I mean, some of Batty's posts in his comic book journal could technically be said to be porno. So where do you draw the line, and who draws it?

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Guybrush

A forum is not exactly an office environment. I see drama and inane banter to the point where it's breaking the rules being allowed to spill to various threads here and I find it to be pretty disruptive. If you're here for drama and inane banter, of course that is great. If you're not, it blows. Does that make sense?


I am talking about everyone who might not like it - short term, long term, potential members, new members, old members. I am suggesting a strategy that changes things in the long run. Based on discussions I've had in the past with other members, it is of my opinion that some members have left because they don't like the culture that has developed here (forgive me if I don't give names). So, I think the current environment is turning away people, generally making the community smaller with each passing year.

I've seen it happen to other communities, particularly in one I modded before coming here. In that community, mods and members became too friendly. I finally left after another mod had shared his login with a normal member and that member used the mod account to edit another user's post. I took it up with the mod team at the time, but they thought it was funny. In other words, no punishment and no integrity. While this lax attitude was allowed to continue, "normal" members left over time and the ones left (the loud kids) had a cliquey and often unfriendly tone. The community shrank and became less active while at the same time becoming more exclusive. Today, it is basically dead.

Musicbanter is not that far gone at all, but the above is a common state many forums gravitate towards as they age. I believe MB is also gravitating towards that, even if it would be years in the future. It is not a healthy development and you need some systems in place to prevent it. A good system could even reverse that development.


To me, draconian means enforcement of laws that are particularly severe and cruel. I believe that's the general definition. There's nothing out of the ordinary severe or cruel about the system I am proposing. Generally speaking, it is a forgiving system that will give punished members a lot of chances for improvement.

Your persistent use of the word draconian is a misrepresentation, hyperbole or fallacy that you're conveniently using to give power to your argument. It is simple manipulation and I wish you would respect my suggestion enough to not stoop to such cheap tricks.


I think a reworking of the rules should be done in cooperation with admin (or Yac on admin's behalf) and the mod team. If a mod doesn't know where the line should be drawn, he or she could get more input from other mods. Possibly, there should be a thread with various examples of rule breaking and how they should be dealt with for general guidance.

edit :

As I mentioned before, I wouldn't mind helping out with implementation, at least during a transition period to get it up and running. It would entail work such as reworking the rules, informing the community, writing up rules, guidelines and examples and finally enforcing the rules by handing out infractions. Just maybe I also know of another ex-mod who could possibly be persuaded to come back and help.

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Something Completely Different

Trollheart

Alright, well find fault with my descriptions if that's what makes you feel better tore. These ARE draconian rules; they leave little room for interpretation or leeway, and black is black and white is white.

I'm not going to continue arguing the point with you, as I have far too much to do and you seem not to be really accepting my arguments. But that's ok. I think the biggest argument against your idea is that a very very small minority of people who have posted here have been in favour of it, the majority think things are all right as they are. I believe that speaks volumes, but will leave you trying to convince others. You won't convince me. I am dead against this whole idea. But there I'll leave it.

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Chula Vista

Tore, take a break from this and get back to our chess game!

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Guybrush

As I've mentioned several times now, there's still room for context. If breaking a rule costs 3 infractions, just think of that as a general guideline. Depending on context, perhaps the final amount should be more or less. The most important thing is that mods do something so that there is consistent consequence to rule breaking. The point of giving pre-determined values to punitive actions is to make it simpler for mods and more predictable for members.


Alright, will do

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Something Completely Different

Mojo

Tore, Pedestrian, NSW and I all gave up our modship for at least some overlapping, similar reasons, and those reasons were all directly related to the way in which this site is modded.

Someone said earlier in this thread that there's no point trying to introduce something like what tore is suggesting because even if we do, mods are going to give certain members preferential treatment, when in fact that is what is happening already and it has always been the case.

I have no issue whatsoever with any of the mods here but I do think the site in general is modded like crap. Drama has come up time and time again in this thread and for good reason; drama has, at times, overtaken this site. This goes back years.

Drama has overtaken this site in many ways. We have allowed trolls to roam free for months, if not years, until finally deciding to pull the trigger. These trolls have proceeded to make this site a thoroughly annoying and unpleasant place to visit. We've also had members identified as trouble-makers to the point the site becomes divided in two and brimming with discussion around whether or not said member should still be here or should be banned. This kind of discussion, frankly, should rarely spill over onto the boards, because the rules should be tight and specific enough to avoid any kind of debate. They do however also need to be enforced.

I gave up my spot modding here because the drama didn't stop at the public boards but it spilled over into the mod forum also. While on the public boards we had trolls pissing people off, and cliques forming within, some calling for them to be banned, some jumping to their defence, and so on the mod forum we had a group of moderators also discussing and debating the same people and events. Should they be banned? Have they warranted a ban? Are people being too touchy? Can't they just block them? Should they need to block them? Will there be a backlash if we ban them? Is it worth a backlash? And so on and so forth. I'm sad to say that these discussions started to resemble too closely what could be perceived as a discussion around what the mods could maybe even do to have these troublesome members effectively hang themselves in a way in which nobody would be surprised to see them permanently banned.

I attempted to create a discussion within the mod forum around a system similar to what tore is proposing, where the rules are potentially updated and where the rules are most definitely better and more consistently enforced. Not to crack down harder on the users of the forum, not to start punishing people for minor offences, but to ensure everyone is being treated in the same way. Some trolls are clever and have much more time on their hands than you may think, in which to keep coming back to disrupt and ruffle feathers, and these are the ones that always created the most discussion because one minute you think they are breaking rules and intentionally pissing people off and the next you think they are just having a laugh and are actually here for genuine reasons. With a more consistent system in place these people would be banned much earlier on, the forums would be disrupted far less, this would be a much more enjoyable place to visit, and as long as everyone is very clear on what the rules are and how they are being enforced, there should be zero debate around the actions of the mods.

If you really feel you completely understand the rules here 100% and are without a doubt that they are being enforced correctly, then fair play to you. I'm not in a place to argue. But I would suggest that maybe you just don't see it.

Some members here will be banned for insulting someone or pissing off a mod, but take a member who has been here years and if they lose their head and commit the very same offence, they will get a tap on the wrists via a subtle PM and told to stop being such a dick. Then take into consideration that we have many different mods, all with their own favourites, all with their own users that they dont care for, all modding this place very differently, because that is the system we have in place. Yes we have rules, yes we have an infraction system, but we dont use them. We allow each person we entrust with modding this place to do it their own way and how they see fit, so is it really any surprise that every few weeks or months our boards are filled with drama about the latest poster here that is ruffling peoples feathers? It happens just as much in the mod forum too, believe me. It seems worthy of considering whether that is really still the best way to run this place.

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Last.FM | Echoes and Dust

WWWP

The proposed system would regulate the endless pages of pointless off topic back and forth and pointless off topic inside jokes and reaction gifs and ego inflation which are painfully annoying to pretty much everyone except those participating in it. I agree with Tore that if you can cope with the endless drivel then it doesn't seem like an issue, but it's so ****ing dull to have to sift through all the **** to get to the interesting conversation.

Edit: Spot on, Neil.

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#DEMODFROWNLAND
#TERMLIMITSFORMODERATORS