Rishi Sunak says 'a man is a man and a woman is a woman'

**Marie Monday** · 12-15-2023, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

The political demands of trans activism reflect the creep agenda and are unacceptable. We've been down that road already once or twice.

Once you stretch the concept of "woman" to where everyone can just opt into it there's no legal basis to contest the outcomes (such as what we see in the Canadian prison system and, more broadly, the introduction of the male gaze and penis into spaces created to exclude those). There's a price to everything, and the price of good intentions is usually steeper than members of the community of the good are prepared to admit.

There are different degrees of trans activism and you homogenise them too much, but at this point we're not gonna come to a closer agreement anyway (as you say, we keep repeating ourselves) so nevermind

jadis · 12-16-2023, 03:37 AM

The goals of the trans activism I'm talking about are changes to law. Law is by necessity a broad-brush affair. I don't have to think that all or most or even many MTFs are predators (though among those who demand transfer to women's prisons in Canada it doesn't look good) to think that none of them belong in spaces where women have an expectation of freedom from the male gaze and penis.

It might get interesting if you name some of those kinds of trans activism you're prepared to condemn as dangerous or excessive. It sounds like you're comfortable with saying this about the consequences but not about the well-funded and sophisticated political campaigns of policy capture that lead to those consequences.

It's easy to agree that this is not ideal:

But pointing out what has made this possible is much more challenging because it requires offending many perfectly nice people. Believe me, I get it. I haven't survived in academia for as long as I have (though whether being an adjunct amounts to survival I'm not at all sure) because I'm as outspoken elsewhere as I am on a zero stakes anonymous forum.

**Marie Monday** · 12-16-2023, 04:43 AM

Aw man I really don't feel like debating but I'll say that I really think if an activist group pushes for a measure I condemn, then I will oppose that. And I'm sure many trans activist groups in general push for things here and there that i do oppose, there are probably some more radical groups that i oppose altogether.

Also, I think you have a view of me as much more conditioned to be nice and inoffensive than I actually am

jadis · 12-16-2023, 05:17 AM

Your denial of being bought by the Niceness lobby is noted but not accepted. I still think you're in the pocket of Big Nice.

**Marie Monday** · 12-16-2023, 02:35 PM

ok dude

The Batlord · 12-16-2023, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

The goals of the trans activism I'm talking about are changes to law. Law is by necessity a broad-brush affair. I don't have to think that all or most or even many MTFs are predators (though among those who demand transfer to women's prisons in Canada it doesn't look good) to think that none of them belong in spaces where women have an expectation of freedom from the male gaze and penis.

It might get interesting if you name some of those kinds of trans activism you're prepared to condemn as dangerous or excessive. It sounds like you're comfortable with saying this about the consequences but not about the well-funded and sophisticated political campaigns of policy capture that lead to those consequences.

It's easy to agree that this is not ideal:

But pointing out what has made this possible is much more challenging because it requires offending many perfectly nice people. Believe me, I get it. I haven't survived in academia for as long as I have (though whether being an adjunct amounts to survival I'm not at all sure) because I'm as outspoken elsewhere as I am on a zero stakes anonymous forum.

"If you're a transfem who doesn't want to go to a men's prison then you're a rapist."

Hey here's a law: Jadis must heretofore forthwith suck my cock.

elphenor · 12-19-2023, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

I'm more interested in what sense this person can be said to be a woman.

you can't lie about your gender because it's a self-identifier anyway

you just are what you say you are when it comes to gender

typically people present as their gender but even that isn't what makes a man or woman

elphenor · 12-19-2023, 10:55 AM

sex may need to be considered in the case of trans women in sports, it's definitely complicated

however it's so clear that you're using the issue as a vehicle for your transphobia that I don't know why you'd even bother being disingenuous

**Marie Monday** · 12-19-2023, 11:25 AM

Yoooo elph!

elphenor · 12-19-2023, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

Once you stretch the concept of "woman" to where everyone can just opt into it there's no legal basis to contest the outcomes

it's not that the definition of a woman has stretched in this particular way

"Woman" has always been a social designation

we do not go around asking to see people's birth certificates in order to determine their gender, we take a look at their presentation

the way we present gender has changed naturally through history to the point where we can reasonably ask if it's necessary to present at all

12-16-2023, 03:37 AM	#122 (permalink)
jadis Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: dont ask Posts: 1,232	The goals of the trans activism I'm talking about are changes to law. Law is by necessity a broad-brush affair. I don't have to think that all or most or even many MTFs are predators (though among those who demand transfer to women's prisons in Canada it doesn't look good) to think that none of them belong in spaces where women have an expectation of freedom from the male gaze and penis. It might get interesting if you name some of those kinds of trans activism you're prepared to condemn as dangerous or excessive. It sounds like you're comfortable with saying this about the consequences but not about the well-funded and sophisticated political campaigns of policy capture that lead to those consequences. It's easy to agree that this is not ideal: But pointing out what has made this possible is much more challenging because it requires offending many perfectly nice people. Believe me, I get it. I haven't survived in academia for as long as I have (though whether being an adjunct amounts to survival I'm not at all sure) because I'm as outspoken elsewhere as I am on a zero stakes anonymous forum. Last edited by jadis; 12-16-2023 at 04:25 AM.

12-16-2023, 05:17 AM	#124 (permalink)
jadis Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2021 Location: dont ask Posts: 1,232	Your denial of being bought by the Niceness lobby is noted but not accepted. I still think you're in the pocket of Big Nice.