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Old 07-21-2019, 08:13 PM   #19581 (permalink)
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that's just a proxy for giving up x amount of time hunting and gathering while having far fewer opportunities.

If you believe in your anarchist model so much, why don't you go join one. Communes exist all over the place. And there are even Hunter gatherer tribes still wandering about, mostly cause we treat them like an endangered species at this point.

So clearly there is something about this society you prefer. And correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you can point to a society that enjoys the same level of technological advancement while not bothering to educate their young to the best of their abilities.
America makes all other alternatives impossible. Capitalism is a global menace that leaves no space uninvaded - physical and psychological.

Do you always argue for the most banal and widely accepted perspective?
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:15 PM   #19582 (permalink)
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all other alternatives
Which ones have you considered?
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:19 PM   #19583 (permalink)
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Which ones have you considered?
There aren’t any.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:20 PM   #19584 (permalink)
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I can't think of any.
Try harder.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:22 PM   #19585 (permalink)
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Sure but that doesn't mean that a fundamental change in how we live, how we think, and how we interact hasn't occurred that makes comparisons to older times at best problematic and at most completely useless. Hunting mammoths literally isn't the same as working a desk job or laying asphalt.
my point was simply that labor isn't some unnatural invention of capitalism. It's been baked into our existence from the start. It's just in our society it's more indirect in terms of how it relates to the resources we procur. But the bottom line is you don't get something for nothing. Your existence has a material cost. You're responsible for paying it.


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Modern society has fundamentally changed the idea of a hunter gatherer model...
don't quite understand this statement


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I prefer this society because I have been trained for nothing else than living in it. If you chucked me into a Viking war band I wouldn't be opposed simply because of modern Liberal values conflicting with Viking values, I'd be opposed cause HOLY ****ING **** I WAS NOT TRAINED TO LIVE THIS LIFE GET ME OFF THIS BOAT!!!
The hunter gatherer bit was tongue in cheek.

You weren't born trained to work at Burger King. And working on an agrarian farm in a commune would certainly involve a learning curve. But you could manage it, if you were so
inclined.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:23 PM   #19586 (permalink)
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I agree.
You should because it’s true.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:24 PM   #19587 (permalink)
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America makes all other alternatives impossible. Capitalism is a global menace that leaves no space uninvaded - physical and psychological.

Do you always argue for the most banal and widely accepted perspective?
do you always go against the grain without any regard for pragmatism or reality?

I'm actually quite cynical about the long term prospects of capitalism. But I'm just more cynical about anarchism.

And despite your cop out, there are anarcho communes in the United States. Yes the
communes have to pay taxes etc. But effectively you live off the products you make in a close knit environment. It's literally the closest thing to what you say you want to live under. What exactly is stopping you?

Last edited by jwb; 07-21-2019 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:26 PM   #19588 (permalink)
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my point was simply that labor isn't some unnatural invention of capitalism. It's been baked into our existence from the start. It's just in our society it's more indirect in terms of how it relates to the resources we procur. But the bottom line is you don't get something for nothing. Your existence has a material cost. You're responsible for paying it.


don't quite understand this statement



The hunter gatherer bit was tongue in cheek.

You weren't born trained to work at Burger King. And working on an agrarian farm in a commune would certainly involve a learning curve. But you could manage it, if you were so
inclined.
America doesn’t allow it. If the farmland is fertile it always feeds the capitalist model. And yes, I mean without exception.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:34 PM   #19589 (permalink)
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The communes already exist. People are living in them. They are making enough to live off. They pay taxes, yes. So do you. Stop copping out
Why don't you join?

Just say you can't give up your privileged life to live on a farm and I'll understand.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:34 PM   #19590 (permalink)
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my point was simply that labor isn't some unnatural invention of capitalism. It's been baked into our existence from the start. It's just in our society it's more indirect in terms of how it relates to the resources we procur. But the bottom line is you don't get something for nothing. Your existence has a material cost. You're responsible for paying it.
And my point is that how modern society relates to the basic concept of not getting something for nothing has changed over the millenia and become far more complex and nuanced, so bringing up older times has the effect of oversimplifying modern realities.


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don't quite understand this statement
It was meant to lead into my next statement to your next statement. Hence the ellipsis. Expounding would have meant repeating myself.

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You weren't born trained to work at Burger King.
I was born trained to live in a society where Burger King and all the rest of American capitalism is the monolithic norm.

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And working on an agrarian farm in a commune would certainly involve a learning curve. But you could manage it, if you were so
inclined.
Being inclined isn't the point. Find me an agrarian commune and I'll go there and see what happens. You can't simply shake a stick and find one, let alone a functioning one. Modern capitalistic society makes agrarian communes not simply rare but different from how they would be in a socialist society because the people who would go out of their way to create such a commune are going to be a very specific type of person and there's no guarantee that that person will be the person needed to create such a commune, and even if they were I've been raised to treat such a concept in a certain dubious way that makes me distrustful of any commune I might find. And that says nothing of how modern laws might affect how a commune should have to operate that would undermine its sustainability since those laws do not exist to sustain communes but to sustain capitalist ventures.
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