The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

[jwb]

Originally Posted by jadis

Right. The real effect of comparing everything to Nazis and Auschwitz, which is a real hobby for some, is that it obscures the very real dangers posed by the rise in extremism today.

I heard an interview with a Jewish historian of anti-semitism on French radio and he was 1) very concerned about the rise in violence targeting Jews in France today 2) annoyed that some compare it to the 1930s. The situations have nothing in common, he said, and lead people to misunderstand and minimize the uniquely desperate situation of European Jews in the 1930s, who were utterly abandoned and couldn't expect help from any quarter. We live in a different world today that poses its own multiple dangers and those should be assessed in their specificity.

I get it that it's more exciting to think of yourself as an anti-fascist warrior rather than another guy from the suburbs. That's perfectly human. But it's funny to me that the Soviet victory over the Nazis (which fueled the myth of communist anti-fascism in the West and was a reliable tool to recruit useful idiots to the cause) was always a Russian nationalist myth within Russia, with only the thinnest veneer of universalist values even during the Soviet era. Now that it's mobilized by Putin in Ukraine, some of the self-professed anti-fascists are temporarily embarrassed and scrub all the heroic Soviet imagery from their twitter profiles. Wonder if that's the end of that or is it due for another rewarming.

well it's funny you mention the antifascist angle cause a lot of people seem to harken back to this sort of WW2 model for antifascism when trying to find direction for or justifications for elements of the modern antifa ****.

Like one argument I remember hearing a lot a few years back was that it was good strategy to punch Nazis (Richard Spencer) cause we've tried negotiating with them and the only thing they understand is violence. I've specifically heard Vaush make this kind of argument.

But my recollection of history is that all the failed communist coups and all the brawls where communists fought brown shirts in the streets did **** all to prevent the rise of Nazi power. But the USSR did actually take on the lions share of the burden of actually defeating Nazi power. Which is like... Go Russian military industrial complex I guess?

It's funny though, I feel like both modern Russia and modern USA share the same foundational myth , which is beating the Nazis. I feel like we've outgrown 1776 at this point. The modern version of America didn't start until The Fonz was on TV

[The Batlord]

Punching Nazis isn't going to stop fascism if the only resistance is people in the streets punching. If the far right is gaining political power while the left isn't then no amount of punching is going to save you. But if you punch a Proud Boy and that Proud Boy decides to stay home next time that's a small victory. And even if you're not winning the war then community defense can still save lives.

Like I don't even understand your greater point unless that point is just sneering at the left cause you're insecure about people thinking they're better than you. Do you think not punching Nazis will yield better results? Will the Nazis not getting punched realize it's best to sing kumbyaya and hold hands?

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by jadis

A gentleman who knows his memes

This is so accurate (at least for people from countries where Romani are common), it's really shocking. You'll talk to some progressive, otherwise intelligent person and when Romani are mentioned they suddenly start to spout the same racist nonsense they normally condemn (including the classic ****ty 'but 90 percent of them are criminals!') and hide behind their progressive image when you confront them. It's infuriating

[Janszoon]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

This is so accurate (at least for people from countries where Romani are common), it's really shocking. You'll talk to some progressive, otherwise intelligent person and when Romani are mentioned they suddenly start to spout the same racist nonsense they normally condemn (including the classic ****ty 'but 90 percent of them are criminals!') and hide behind their progressive image when you confront them. It's infuriating

For real. I spent a month in Spain this summer and ran into this a few times.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

you did basically say he was a 1930s Jew who was greedily protecting his precious Holocaust victimhood from having to be shared with other groups. Pretty disappointed to see this type of antisemitic rhetoric coming from you, Batlord.

On an unrelated note I'll be dropping a mixtape soon.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Punching Nazis isn't going to stop fascism if the only resistance is people in the streets punching. If the far right is gaining political power while the left isn't then no amount of punching is going to save you. But if you punch a Proud Boy and that Proud Boy decides to stay home next time that's a small victory. And even if you're not winning the war then community defense can still save lives.

Like I don't even understand your greater point unless that point is just sneering at the left cause you're insecure about people thinking they're better than you. Do you think not punching Nazis will yield better results? Will the Nazis not getting punched realize it's best to sing kumbyaya and hold hands?

The logic of your first paragraph is precisely what I am calling into question. I don't think it actually serves as a deterant. People thrive on the violence.

In the lead up to Nazi Germany the brawls in the streets with communists was actually used as a recruitment tool for luring disaffected, directionless and patriotic former soldiers into the SA. Violence acts as more of a rallying cry than anything else, especially in unstable political environments

[The Batlord]

"People thrive on the violence" is just sort of a vague, useless statement. What people? All the people? Some people? Certain people? Do all people just inherently enjoy getting punched in the face? Cause if not then you need to inject some nuance. Just the slightest bit of nuance. Just anything that isn't thoughtless drivel.

Also, these modern losers aren't dead-eyed WW1 veterans. They work at Home Depot. They thrive on Chili's.

[jwb]

No, not all of the people. But a subset do. That's all it takes. You think all Germans were fighting in the streets of the Weimar Republic or it was just a sizable enough number of people to destabilize the fledgling democracy?

I'm not saying the situations are 1 to 1 either. It's ironically usually the people in the other side who make the WW2 analogy, like jadis alluded to. But either way I think it's a safe bet to say people aren't being moderated by violence towards their side. Especially when dealing with extremist elements in particular you are selecting for people who can use violence as a rallying cry and martyrdom as credibility.

And I'm pretty sure that a lot of the far right militia types are in fact ex military, similar to the Germany example. Of course under certain circumstances you yourself might even point out this threat in another context, but here you conveniently downplay it to try to win a cheap point. Because you actually don't have principles behind anything you are saying at this point.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

No, not all of the people. But a subset do. That's all it takes. You think all Germans were fighting in the streets of the Weimar Republic or it was just a sizable enough number of people to destabilize the fledgling democracy?

Yeah and a sizeable number of those people were WW1 vets unlike the losers in the Proud Boys or Patriot Front. Not to mention the Frei Corps who were given literal weapons of war by the state to fight the left. They had literal artillery to use in Berlin to blast holes in the city. The right now are far more punchable.

I'm not saying the situations are 1 to 1 either. It's ironically usually the people in the other side who make the WW2 analogy, like jadis alluded to. But either way I think it's a safe bet to say people aren't being moderated by violence towards their side. Especially when dealing with extremist elements in particular you are selecting for people who can use violence as a rallying cry and martyrdom as credibility.

You could say the same about Antifa street fighters except you oddly don't. For some reason it's only the far right who will be emboldened to violence through conflict.

And I'm pretty sure that a lot of the far right militia types are in fact ex military, similar to the Germany example. Of course under certain circumstances you yourself might even point out this threat in another context, but here you conveniently downplay it to try to win a cheap point. Because you actually don't have principles behind anything you are saying at this point.

No, idiot. Obviously ex-military extremists are a threat but to compare the relative handful of war on terror veterans to the millions of WW1 veterans is like comparing a candle to a stick of dynamite. Honestly you sound like either a moron or like you're weakly trying not to obviously root for far right terrorists.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Yeah and a sizeable number of those people were WW1 vets unlike the losers in the Proud Boys or Patriot Front. Not to mention the Frei Corps who were given literal weapons of war by the state to fight the left. They had literal artillery to use in Berlin to blast holes in the city. The right now are far more punchable.

it was a sizable segment of extremists who are inclined towards violence. I would argue a similar dynamic exists in the modern US, as much as you try to romanticize the common foot soldier of the SA as so much more competent than your average proud boy in terms of instigating political instability, they weren't.

You could say the same about Antifa street fighters except you oddly don't. For some reason it's only the far right who will be emboldened to violence through conflict.

maybe I didn't state it specifically but I do think the left is also capable of being called to arms. If they ever did get their **** together and do so they could also be a threat. So far the FBI watch list is rightfully dominated by right wingers.

No, idiot. Obviously ex-military extremists are a threat but to compare the relative handful of war on terror veterans to the millions of WW1 veterans is like comparing a candle to a stick of dynamite. Honestly you sound like either a moron or like you're weakly trying not to obviously root for far right terrorists.

I mean who exactly is it that is going to bring about this Trans genocide you keep insisting is on the horizon? You have to make a firm decision about the nature of the threat you're pointing to. How severe are we talking exactly? Somewhere between WW2 and Rwanda?