Music Banter - The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread

- - The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/30710-wow-i-cant-believe-news-story-thread.html)

Frownland

10-10-2017 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1881503)

For centuries, Ireland was ruled from England. We had basically no rights and were subjects of the English monarch. The Famine came about largely because English landowners held all the power and could evict Irish workers if they couldn't pay rent, making them essentially slaves. If we hadn't gained our independence and obtained the right to govern ourselves we would probably still be under English rule.

As for the voting process, here it's not the same as your electoral college. Here, every single vote is counted, and it's infinitely possible to vote in some independent or local candidate into the government. Yes, we only have the three main parties, but the government is made up of the main party/parties and a coalition of independents, meaning that issues more important to the local candidates can be discussed. If nobody voted for these people, they would not be sitting in the Dail and power would rest entirely with the three main parties, which would not be good for anyone, other than them. Having independent candidates means that certain decisions can be blocked, certain issues forced through that otherwise would be ignored, or voted down.

In America we get to vote for which color suits our politicians wear. Thank God we get to govern ourselves.

Trollheart

10-10-2017 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk (Post 1881493)

My answer is (the point of what I did) is that even though the things you fear about anarchism if it should materialize might be justified concerns (it wouldn't be a utopia) but from my vantage point what's already in place is many times more horrific. Most people don't agree or haven't really thought about it. There's an infinity of ain't gonna happens but nonetheless something will happen. Perhaps the continuation of the status quo. The destruction of the environment, nuclear war, or some other disaster. I have a less likely but more pleasant scenerio in my head where writers like Thoreau and Tolstoy became a standard moral compass an we make it through. Idealistic? Sure. But we got a gun to our head. I know this is a failure. I think the path we're on is so destructive that this whole way of living needs to be scraped.

Yeah I agree it's a busted system and a better one would be great. I just don't see how anarchy works. Don't see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1881506)

In America we get to vote for which color suits our politicians wear. Thank God we get to govern ourselves.

Pithy response as usual, but I actually don't know what, if any, point you're trying to make here.

Chula Vista

10-10-2017 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel (Post 1881470)

There is not a single change that happens in this country that the rich and powerful don't allow to happen. Obama won because the top at that time wanted it to be so. Trump won because the top at that time wanted it to be so.

2008 Election: Obama won 68% of the electoral vote and beat Romney by 9.5 million in the popular vote

2012 Election: Obama won 62% of the electoral vote and beat Romney by 5 million in the popular vote

2016 Election: Trump won 57% of the electoral vote but lost the popular vote by 3 million.

Can you explain in more than simple cliches how these 3 election results were "orchestrated" by the rich and powerful?

Why did the top want Obama, a candidate who ran on raises taxes for the rich, equal pay for women, affordable health care, raising the minimum wage, and tightening environmental regulations? None of which would seem desirable to the rich and powerful.

Why did the top want Trump, a candidate who ran on mostly snake oil and catch phrases, as well as basically promising to undo everything that Obama did. A possible third world war, restricted trade with China, and alienating our most powerful allies are things that would be negatives for the rich and powerful.

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard

10-10-2017 09:47 AM

not saying it's one way or the other but you're looking at pretty narrowly Chula. look at the aftermath of both of those presidents vs the state of the country atm. if their goal was to turn us all against each other then it clearly worked.

btw there's no excuse for not voting. whether you feel it matters or not, it requires minimal effort to mark an x on a piece of paper.

edit 2 - it's been a couple years, can we plz get off Obama's dick now and admit he was an ok president but doesn't deserve to be held like the golden standard simply bc he's black.

Frownland

10-10-2017 09:48 AM

Obama's expansion of the executive office opened up the door for plenty of lobbyists. Of course they love the guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1881507)

Pithy response as usual, but I actually don't know what, if any, point you're trying to make here.

Just because you have the right to vote doesn't mean that you're inherently voting on anything of value or in a way that doesn't **** you or others over.

Trollheart

10-10-2017 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1881513)

Just because you have the right to vote doesn't mean that you're inherently voting on anything of value or in a way that doesn't **** you or others over.

The point I was making, which you either missed, ignored, or refuse to accept, is that with local candidates in govt you can actually get issues discussed that matter to you. For instance, when I was having trouble getting Karen's extension built I could have gone to my local representative and asked them to raise it on the Dail floor (bring up the subject when the govt is in session) and it would have been. Writing to the Taoiseach (Prime Minister), Minister for Health etc would not have worked, but I can go to the office of my local guy and talk to him face to face and he will agree to discuss the matter in open session. THAT's part of the reason why I vote, and is a solid result of the voting process. If I hadn't helped vote that guy in, he wouldn't be there to help me and I'd have no voice in govt, see?

Frownland

10-10-2017 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1881517)

You were talking about Ireland, I told you about America. I've talked to my reps multiple times. They still vote how they're paid to.

Trollheart

10-10-2017 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1881519)

You were talking about Ireland, I told you about America. I've talked to my reps multiple times. They still vote how they're paid to.

Well yeah, obviously I was talking about Ireland. I suppose if you edit OH's claim to say "Voting in AMERICA is pointless" then I have no opinion, as I obviously don't and can't vote there. But if he means to say voting in general is pointless, then that's just wrong, as I pointed out. I suppose he needs to clarify.

The thing about Ireland is that people WILL vote out someone who doesn't do what he was elected to, if he doesn't keep his promises. Take a guy who is voted in as an independent for Waterford, one of our counties. Staff in that hospital are in danger of losing their pensions, and he is voted in on the promise he will ensure they are protected. If he doesn't do this, or try to, he won't be elected next time around. So the people can hold their elected representatives to some sort of accountability.

Frownland

10-10-2017 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

voting in general is pointless

Now that's what I call missing the point.

Trollheart

10-10-2017 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1881523)

Now that's what I call missing the point.

Now that's what I call calculated editing to change the message.