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Old 01-10-2018, 02:15 PM   #9501 (permalink)
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Youre on Chula status until you bother saying something useful.
[INSULT REDACTED]

From Politifact

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So as Independence Day approaches, we thought we’d offer a little history lesson on who the major founding fathers were, and where they came from.

After consulting several scholars and other sources, we found that -- with some exceptions -- central figures in the nation’s founding generally came from privileged backgrounds, attended college at a time when very few people did and, by 1776, were prominent and wealthy.

"They weren't ordinary," said Brown University emeritus history professor Gordon Wood, author of "Creation of the American Republic," "Revolutionary Characters: What Made the Founders Different" and other books. "They were the elite of the day, involved in highest levels of the society."
From The Atlantic

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In January of 1944, in the midst of the terrifying days of World War II, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt unveiled a huge idea in his State of the Union address. The nation had fought its enemies to ensure its residents remained free, he said, but American citizens could not be truly free if they were constantly worrying about where their next meal was coming from or if they could afford a roof over their heads. “People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made,” he said.

To remedy this problem, he proposed adding a new set of guaranteed provisions to supplement the country’s founding documents.

He wanted Americans to have the right to a “useful and remunerative” job in America’s industries, shops, farms, or mines. He wanted families to have the right to a decent home, and he wanted everyone to have the right to adequate medical care and the “opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.” He thought Americans should have the right to a good education, and the right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment.

Today, these are things that could define the American Dream: a good job, a home, health care, and security. But it’s interesting that including such provisions in the country’s guiding documents weren’t mentioned until some 168 years after the America’s founding.

FDR styled these proposals a “second bill of rights.” The first Bill of Rights, of course, refers to the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution, which allowed for, among other things, freedom of the press, the right to bear arms, and the right to a trial by jury. Those rights, at the time, were top of mind among the country’s founders, who were concerned most with getting Great Britain out of their affairs. The founders didn’t concern themselves with what people in their young country would do if they got sick and couldn’t pay their rent. In fact, neither the Bill of Rights, nor the Declaration of Independence, nor the U.S. Constitution talk explicitly about the nation’s role in making sure its citizens have jobs or homes or earned enough to avoid being impoverished. The only line that even comes close appears in the preamble to the Constitution, where “We the People of the United States” pledge to “promote the general Welfare.” But at no point in the founding literature do the founding fathers identify what constitutes general welfare, or how nation should be upholding it.
Re: Oppression

In a system where "the system" makes laws geared towards aiding the rich and not the poor, aren't those who can't afford to make ends meet in regards to food and shelter, can't afford decent physical and mental health care, and are basically kicked to the curb by society OPPRESSED?

But I digress. I'm really glad you are happy and content with your place in the economic spectrum - **** off from all of us who aren't because the system ****ed us over.
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Last edited by Chula Vista; 01-10-2018 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:17 PM   #9502 (permalink)
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:18 PM   #9503 (permalink)
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Piss off you narrow minded ****. Oh, and....

From Politifact



From The Atlantic



Re: Oppression

In a system where "the system" makes laws geared towards aiding the rich and not the poor, aren't those who can't afford to make ends meet in regards to food and shelter, can't afford decent physical and mental health care, and are basically kicked to the curb by society OPPRESSED?

But I digress. I'm really glad you are happy and content with your place in the economic spectrum - **** of from all of us who aren't because the system ****ed us over.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:25 PM   #9504 (permalink)
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how could you live in this dimension and not see how wealth of any level will grant you more freedoms than those without
Its hard to answer your question without agreeing on what you mean when you say freedom. Its also hard to argue against when your misrepresenting me.

Lets try this: would you also argue that pharmaceutical treatments are inherently bad or is it the way the system uses them that creates problems?

Wealth in and of itself is not oppresive within a system that does not allow for it.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:31 PM   #9505 (permalink)
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Lets try this: would you also argue that pharmaceutical treatments are inherently bad or is it the way the system uses them that creates problems?
I think I get what you're saying here but it seems like a bit of a false equivalency. Money doesn't work without a system that supports it which makes separating it from those systems a misnomer. A pharmaceutical treatment is consistent whether it's administered once or one million times.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:34 PM   #9506 (permalink)
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You're not gonna win this one, DwnWthVwls. Frown has a +10 against Jersey Logic. Plus, with Chula as his wingfish, he can call in a Boston Boys support squad.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:39 PM   #9507 (permalink)
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I think I get what you're saying here but it seems like a bit of a false equivalency. Money doesn't work without a system that supports it which makes separating it from those systems a misnomer. A pharmaceutical treatment is consistent whether it's administered once or one million times.
so youre arguing its impossible to set up a system where wealth is not oppressive? I dont see how you could make that claim, but if you were to demonstrate it id be willing to change my position.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:40 PM   #9508 (permalink)
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so youre arguing its impossible to set up a system where wealth is not oppressive? I dont see how you could make that claim, but if you were to demonstrate it id be willing to change my position.
Do you have an example that shows that it is possible or at least one that gets close? Because as far as I know money=influence and power every time it was around.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:43 PM   #9509 (permalink)
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Yes, but power =/= oppression. Oppression is multifaceted and while money may certainly be a driving force, it is definitely not the only variable.

And I don't have the burden of proof. I'm not convinced of the claim that wealth = oppression.
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Old 01-10-2018, 02:50 PM   #9510 (permalink)
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Yes, but power =/= oppression. Oppression is multifaceted and while money may certainly be a driving force, it is definitely not the only variable.

And I don't have the burden of proof. I'm not convinced of the claim that wealth = oppression.
I added influence as an edit.

You also said this

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I already aknowledged that i accept the power money can buy within our system.
I don't think that this is exclusive to our current system but rather that it's ubiquitous across every system that we've attempted that involved money. The burden of proof is now on you to show a system that successfully separates power and wealth.

I suppose that the real disagreement here might be that an ever-present opportunity for oppression isn't the same as oppression and I guess that comes down to opinion.
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