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Old 03-20-2010, 10:40 PM   #511 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword View Post
Jesus's ethics were completely altruistic. He asks Christians to do the same, to sacrifice their lives. ...

I am operating on the idea that self-sacrifice is when one experiences a net loss or gives up a higher value for a lower value.
Christian martyrdom can not be self destructive, self loathing motive behind it, martyrs don't want to die because they hate their life or someone else's life; their death is something that happens to them because of their faith. Not all matyrdoms end in death, someone can suffer a (bloodless) "white" matyrdom when they are persecuted or face hardship for their beliefs. (I think just to admit there is a God in today's society is a white matyrdom.) When it comes to "self-sacrifice," there has to be a right motive behind it, it can't be done begrudgingly or have ulterior motives behind it.
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Old 03-21-2010, 12:42 PM   #512 (permalink)
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And you read this where? Idiot's Guide to Fascist Theology or something?

Had there not been a resurrection, the story would be meaningless. Easter does not celebrate his death, it rejoices for his rebirth. The "take up your cross and follow me" is a reference to spreading the Gospel, not the pursuit of martyrdom.
If there wasn't a resurrection, he still would have died for the sins of many, which is something that is celebrated and revered.

You are ignoring the obvious message that Jesus tried to put forth, and that is a message of self-sacrifice to God, and secondly to others. He died for that message and people celebrate that. That is what Easter celebrates. The resurrection only serves as a symbol that God is all powerful. Since he is all powerful, you should obey him.

Have you even looked at the early church at all? Jesus was warning them of the up and coming martyrdom that would plague them until they deserted their position as the persecuted to become exactly what God did not want them to be, the persecutor. Slaves, obey your masters because it is your duty to God. Same with women and their husbands.

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Christian martyrdom can not be self destructive, self loathing motive behind it, martyrs don't want to die because they hate their life or someone else's life; their death is something that happens to them because of their faith. Not all matyrdoms end in death, someone can suffer a (bloodless) "white" matyrdom when they are persecuted or face hardship for their beliefs. (I think just to admit there is a God in today's society is a white matyrdom.) When it comes to "self-sacrifice," there has to be a right motive behind it, it can't be done begrudgingly or have ulterior motives behind it.
You took two quotes which were not linked to each other and successfully attacked a non-existent point.

First, martyrs want to die because it is their duty to God to do so. Even though their life would be better lived, they do it anyways because it is what God wants. They aren't (theoretically) doing it because they want to die. They are doing it for God. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. It is still self-sacrifice in the way I described it. It is still the neglect of one's own self-interest.

In reality, though, many Christians are looking for an escape route for their discontentment with life. They acknowledge that one has to run away from the black hole that modern existentialism is present in. They acknowledge that there really is no meaning to life on this earth unless you abandon reality and substitute it with a faith-based perception. Some martyrs act with the disinterest that you talk of, most martyrs act with self-hatred. Either way, they do not take an interest in themselves, which is exactly what they should be taking interest in.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:34 PM   #513 (permalink)
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You took two quotes which were not linked to each other and successfully attacked a non-existent point.
Did anyone ever say something and you thought to yourself it could go either way. Like if you were walking with a friend outside and it's a dreary drizzling day and he said "lovely weather we're having, aren't we." And you think to yourself well he could like a rainy day, or maybe he could hate a rainy day, too.
There was nothing in what I said that was an attack, I was telling you what I thought about martyrdom. I thought if I did that you would respond and maybe I would get a better picture of what you were saying. I was only a little confused about your attitude behind what you saying. I guess they're linked together imho, "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" plus in the context of what was said they were two example of the way you say things about Christianity that leave guessing. And anyway phrases like "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" aren't exclusively Christian, a journalist or historian can say those words about anybody eg a soldier.

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Some martyrs act with the disinterest that you talk of, most martyrs act with self-hatred. Either way, they do not take an interest in themselves, which is exactly what they should be taking interest in.
In war a soldier could be killed on the battlefeild or he could be captured and given choice of revealing secrets or torture and death. He doesn't want to be tortured, he doesn't want to die, but also he doesn't want to reveal information that would lead other soldiers to die. He doesn't reveal the information to the enemy and faces the consequence because he hates himself or hates life, but sees a greater good in saving his follow soldier & friends. It's just the situation he is in, and the choices he's given and you can't say he hates himself because he sees a greater good the life of other soldiers. Matryrdom is similar. Most the time a martyrs are just killed because of his/her faith. But sometimes there is a choice involve like in the case of Thomas More. Exteriorly it may look like there is no self interest or self-hatred invovle, but interiorly the motive is based on a greater good.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:58 AM   #514 (permalink)
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What greater good in saving his fellow ..?

Do you have any idea how stupid the whole soldier thing sounds?

The soldier goes to war on behalf of his country (his "leaders") and wages war for his "masters" ends and you say there's greater good in this?

What great good is there in the suppressing of weak countries ?
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:38 PM   #515 (permalink)
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What greater good in saving his fellow ..?

Do you have any idea how stupid the whole soldier thing sounds?

The soldier goes to war on behalf of his country (his "leaders") and wages war for his "masters" ends and you say there's greater good in this?

What great good is there in the suppressing of weak countries ?
I'm pretty sure you just took Neapolitan's post completely out of context. He was using an example in order to show that martyr's don't sacrifice themselves because of self-loathing, or because they want to die. Rather, they are martyred in the service of someone or something else. In our example, it's in relation to God.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:59 PM   #516 (permalink)
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Hi there,

Just came across this thread so I have not had time to wade through the whole 50 odd pages so here's my simple, (and to me anyway), satisfactory explanation:

'GOD' in one form or another must be around otherwise this thread would not be here in the first place.

For me, 'GOD' is the word we use to fill the huge void that none of us are really big enough to fully understand. 'GOD' is the energy, the potential for life in it's many forms that as always been and always will be. There as never been a time when this potential did not exist and there will never be a time when it does not exist. Being able to truly accept that is the hardest, but most important thing.

Our time here is just way smaller and shorter than the piddliest tiny thing you can imagine compared to what is behind us and what is in front of us both in space and time.

I would say I'm a spiritual person who appreciates my time here on this Earth and yes, I do believe in what we seem to call 'GOD'.

However, my own feelings and experience tell me that 'GOD' is not a being but is in fact everything. We are part of this and because we have brains we tend to think 'GOD' is like us.. -Typical ! The truth is, man kind is not prepared to take on the responsibility and so we created something, a father figure to take all that away. Just part of the human nature I guess.

Wow, it must be Friday!

Have a great weekend ya,ll. Peace and love to almost everyone.. just joking,-everyone then.

Gordon.
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:11 PM   #517 (permalink)
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What greater good in saving his fellow ..?

Do you have any idea how stupid the whole soldier thing sounds?

The soldier goes to war on behalf of his country (his "leaders") and wages war for his "masters" ends and you say there's greater good in this?

What great good is there in the suppressing of weak countries ?
I hope you have some good background information about which countries go to war to just "suppress weak countries". As far as I know, most countries dont go to war to show their military superiority. Instead, powerful countries do stupid things like this: Great White Fleet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, killing is wrong, but until the human race becomes entirely pacifist, which is to say inhuman, its best not to worry about "the greater good", because chances are you don't understand exactly what is behind the fighting.
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:04 AM   #518 (permalink)
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Did anyone ever say something and you thought to yourself it could go either way. Like if you were walking with a friend outside and it's a dreary drizzling day and he said "lovely weather we're having, aren't we." And you think to yourself well he could like a rainy day, or maybe he could hate a rainy day, too.
There was nothing in what I said that was an attack, I was telling you what I thought about martyrdom. I thought if I did that you would respond and maybe I would get a better picture of what you were saying. I was only a little confused about your attitude behind what you saying. I guess they're linked together imho, "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" plus in the context of what was said they were two example of the way you say things about Christianity that leave guessing. And anyway phrases like "to sacrifice their lives" & "self-sacrifice" aren't exclusively Christian, a journalist or historian can say those words about anybody eg a soldier.
What I said was not completely ambiguous if you looked at what was around the phrase. It isn't the same scenario.

I understand that self-sacrifice is preached beyond Christianity, which is why I don't consider Christianity to be the root of evil or anything. Either way, it still preaches self-sacrifice.


Quote:
In war a soldier could be killed on the battlefeild or he could be captured and given choice of revealing secrets or torture and death. He doesn't want to be tortured, he doesn't want to die, but also he doesn't want to reveal information that would lead other soldiers to die. He doesn't reveal the information to the enemy and faces the consequence because he hates himself or hates life, but sees a greater good in saving his follow soldier & friends. It's just the situation he is in, and the choices he's given and you can't say he hates himself because he sees a greater good the life of other soldiers. Matryrdom is similar. Most the time a martyrs are just killed because of his/her faith. But sometimes there is a choice involve like in the case of Thomas More. Exteriorly it may look like there is no self interest or self-hatred invovle, but interiorly the motive is based on a greater good.
The greater good is the progression of God's kingdom, which is a kingdom in which everybody is sacrificing themselves to everybody else. Is there a good greater than yourself?
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:15 PM   #519 (permalink)
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My issue with religion is that it requires you to follow blindly without questioning anything. Just have "faith" and then listen to a man in a robe talk at you about it.. and then leave a tip in a small basket. Do it for Jesus

Well that's my 2 cents, have a good day.
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Old 04-05-2010, 03:09 PM   #520 (permalink)
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"I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that if God would have existed, it would be necessary to abolish him."
- Mikhail Bakunin
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