Dotoar

Yeah, there is a god, and his name is Carl Sagan.

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Inuzuka Skysword

"He works in ways you don't understand" is not an argument. That is the problem. One cannot say, "Try to argue that you can argue at all!" and expect there to be any argument.

The sentence should actually be "can't" instead of "don't." If it is "don't" then one is required to enlighten those of us who don't know.

Guybrush

Earlier today, there was a film about Moses on the telly and it got me wondering quite a bit as I watched it.

The story of Moses is good, old fashioned christianity. God is a pretty scary deity who kills a whole lot of egyptians, for example through the 7 plagues like killing all egyptian first born children or when the pursuing egyptians are swallowed by the red sea.

Later in the story, Moses gets the ten commandments, one of which is "thou shalt not kill" which seems to me a little contradictory coming from a God that supposedly caused all kinds of suffering a little earlier in the film. What do you christians think about this?

Also, God is very active in this story. If you were not a christian, you would almost have to become one because his direct involvement in the lives of the people in this story is undeniable. It's not a voice in hearts or heads, but real stuff happening physically to people and the world. For example, the Nile's water turns to blood and he splits the red sea. Why is it that God has stopped interacting with people in such a direct way?

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Something Completely Different

Bloozcrooz

Very good points that you have made. Ive watched that movie from a child all through the years. Having been raised in your typical southern baptist home here in Texas. I noticed you raised thought to why God seemed to contradict hiself. Well life is a gift from God in Christianity. Were given the choice to obey or not. Its been awhile but I think they had been warned several times before God showed his wrath. As we as humans find it against the law to kill, but in the same token put to death murders. Then God was these people's only hope. Thats as good as I can elaborate on it for you. Ultimatley he is God and not to be questioned for us, but always fair and merciful. As far as his interacting after Jesus was sent to die on the cross there was'nt the need for his interacting on earth anymore. His son was the ultimate sacrifice. Sent to teach and show and work miracles then die for our sins.So that through his blood we could be saved. Let me correct myself he still interacts just not as direct. The stronger your faith the more his works are seen though. Im no preacher but thats as good as I can describe it for you. Hope maybe it gave you some insight friend.

Janszoon

How so?

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A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Bloozcrooz

How was Gods son the ultimate sacrifice? Well I dont know how you could sacrifice anything more sacred. I mean thats as much knowledge as I have on the topic. The life of your child is more sacred than your own. Or at least should be. Speaking as a father. Do you agree??

Janszoon

But aren't all people supposed to be god's children? What makes Jesus any more of a sacrifice than any of the thousands of other people the Romans crucified?

__________________
A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

Guybrush

First, I wanted to write thank you for an honest answer Because I didn't get one earlier, I expected it wasn't something that christians would like to get into because they would worry about being attacked in a one-sided argument.

I point out these things specifically because they are things that I would have trouble with myself, had I believed in God and this story of Moses as it is. It's true that God (through Moses) did warn the egyptians, or at least the pharaoh, so it was part the pharaoh's decision to not listen which led to so much suffering for the egyptians. The way they suffered was all in control of God of course, so I don't think one can call it a natural consequence from a lack of obedience. It's like saying if you drive without a seat belt, I'm going to kill you. If you then kill someone because they didn't do what you said, you did the killing and you are responsible for that. You didn't have to kill. Similarly, God obviously killed these egyptians. He's clearly a vengeful God in this story and instead of giving the egyptian people a chance at atonement, he only warns the pharaoh who in the story was a very proud and difficult person. It seems God had a wish to kill them because if he really wanted to spare their lives, he could've done more to persuade them and he basically could have chosen not to kill. In the red sea, why drown the following egyptians for example? He could've just made a wall of water blocking their path.

As such, I can't accept that he is always fair and merciful based on this story. The first born children of the egyptians were killed and were not given a chance at life. Where's the fairness in that?

The idea that you can't question God is understandable. How could we ants attempt to understand the grand scheme anyways? However, I wouldn't be comfortable with the passive role that one should not ask difficult questions.

The idea that there's no reason for interacting after Jesus builds on the assumption that God's only motivation for interacting is because he wants to save people from sin and that this is something Jesus now has done for us and for people in the future. I'm not sure I believe this as he/she/it seems to have different motives in other stories. For example in the story of Noah and the flood, he kills almost everyone and everything. The motive doesn't seem to be to give people and animals a chance at salvation, but rather to wipe the slate clean so that he can start again, another story which does not seem fair or merciful to me!

I could add at the end that in the story of Job, God lets Satan take Job's wealth, children and health - everything he has, just as a test. After suffering, because of his dedication to God, Job is reimbursed for his loss (suggesting that his children have worth the same way objects like footballs or bikecycles have worth), but it still looks very much like playing with the lives of people, not entirely unlike the way the Olympian gods play with the lives of people.

I realize that christians may not believe these stories, even if they are in the bible. For example the story of the flood seems very far fetched to me and many christians too, I'm sure. However, the story of Moses is fundamental to the bible and is regularly referenced in sermons. I imagine it might be a hard one to "escape" for believers.

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Something Completely Different

Bloozcrooz

Religion is always a touchy subject to talk about. You seem to have a lot knowledge about Christianity. I wish I had all the answers but I dont. I still have a lot of questions myself to be honest. Through the years as I get older I have more and more. Always good to hear what questions other people have and hear things from their side as well. I guess one day we will all know the truth.

SATCHMO

I'm taking a bit of a late stab at this one. I have to confess that I’ve never seen the movie, but the book of Genesis is easily one of my favorite books of the bible. It means a lot to me and I continue to glean new insight and wisdom each time I read it.

Firstly, I have to give my obligatory disclaimer and say that I’m not a conventional Christian, which in this case means that I probably believe that more of the supernatural events in this story are allegorical than the typical literalist Christian may believe. Having said that. the story of Moses and the great exodus out of Egypt is all about heeding God’s revelations and living in a state of faith that is not reflective of one’s immediate external circumstance.

You have Moses (in Hebrew, Moses, literally translated, means to draw out) who ironically, was benevolently abandoned by his Hebrew mother, adopted into Egyptian royalty, Sees the injustice of the brutality that is being inflicted on his people, and is chosen by God for a task that seems infinitely beyond his capacity, Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past, nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue... Pardon your servant, Lord. Please send someone else - Exodus 3:10-13. Moses wrestling with his own faith over being chosen to lead an entire nation out of the bondage of slavery and into freedom is just one facet of the entire faith dynamic of this story.

You then have the Pharaoh Ramses, who after each round of Moses beseeching him with God’s command to let his people go and worship Him, The Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them - Exodus 7:13. It started out with the Pharaoh requesting a miracle of Moses so as to prove to him that he was really the ambassador of God’s word, to which Moses responded by throwing down his staff which turned into a snake, a rather innocuous sign. After each of the Pharaoh’s subsequent refusals, the consequences of dismissing Moses’ authority becomes more and more severe until finally the last plague results in the death of every one of Egypt’s first born. If you take this as being allegorical, like I do, the primary lesson here is that when one ignores the writing on the wall, so to speak, in favor of clinging to one’s one pride or particular wants, the consequences become more and more severe. I think that everyone has experienced this to a certain degree in their own life.

And Finally, the Jews who, after spending over 200 years in captivity, are led out of bondage and out of a country and a way of life that they’ve known for generations by a man that they do not fully trust, or trust at all. The estimated number of Jews following Moses range in number between 120,000 and and 600,000, regardless, that’s a huge caravan to be traipsing across the desert for what turned out to be 40 years. The Jews were required to trust God and subsequently Moses implicitly. All of their provisions were provided for through some seemingly supernatural act of god: The water pouring out from the rock, the Manna from heaven, the defeat of the enemies that they encountered along the way. They had to rely on their own faith that the veneer of the external circumstances that they perceived was not indicative of their ultimate fate. They had to have faith both in the man that was chosen to lead them and in God to provide what they needed on the journey and more often than not, they failed at displaying this level of faith they were dominated by their own fear, behaved rashly because of it, and this made the journey to the promised land all the more longer.

The ten commandments, which for most is the highlight and the main focal point of the story, to me does not carry the degree of importance as it does in most Christian’s eyes. I see it as God’s practical ground rules for living harmoniously within a society, which the Jews after spending over 200 years in captivity desperately needed, especially considering their numbers. Sure the first commandment Thou shalt not have any god before me seems to contradict that, but given the circumstances the Jews very existence depended on a very implicit faith in God to lead them to where they were going. I think that degree of faith is still necessary for some, including myself, as a guide on their own path.

I think some distinctions need to be made between a human killing another human and an act of God taking another or many lives. God’s discretion and judgment is not marred by human emotion. God does not have to live with the potential doubt or remorse regarding the justification, or lack thereof, of taking another life and God also does not have to deal with the societal complications that arise when taking another's life for one’s own self interests is condoned. Because of this, I don’t see the contradiction between the justification of God killing and the unjust act of humans committing murder. If one believes in God’s sovereignty, then any act that God commits is just. God does not have the weight of a regrettable crime weighing on his shoulders and eating away at his soul, whereas humans are very susceptible to that.

As far as the supernatural is concerned, I think it is a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as a supernatural occurrence, only an occurrence that lies beyond our capacity for understanding. Everything happens within nature. It is our lack of true understanding of nature which causes things to appear to be supernatural, but also I think that the more we discredit the miraculous, write it off as coincidence, or laugh at the naivete of those who believe in things that cannot be empirically deduced, the more we lose our capacity to see the hand of the divine working throughout our life. We lose the spiritual lens which affords us our perception of the seemingly supernatural events that occur everyday in our lives.