Yukon Cornelius

Wrong,

Its as real as you want it to be... Period. Since after all the things you say arent real are physical, and very much real... Do me a favor and show me in example of how you are not contradicting yourself in this statment

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Attempting to find a cure for Stupid...

midnight rain

You don't seem to be comprehending what the other poster is saying

The religion Christianity is real. Period. Same with every other religion. He's not saying God is real, he's saying Christianity is real. As long as there are believers, it is real.

sleepy jack

How can you have free will to believe in the Christian god or not when according to theology there's some master plan for all of us?

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sleepy jack

You can dismiss my jab off as arrogant; I don’t care. You’re lying. You’re not trying to paint yourself as this innocent man who’s taking the high road in this argument. You aren’t and you never were. You came into this thread and started belligerently attacking and mocking atheism/agnosticism and treating it as a teenage fad full of immoral charlatans. I’m amazed you’ve dared to accuse anyone of being arrogant considering the nature of your comments and the nature of your arguments.

I’ll offer several arguments here, all of which I expect you to counter.
Argument one being I have faith god doesn’t exist. See how unsatisfying of an answer that is? It’s unsatisfying of course because it isn’t an answer at all, it’s a cop out. Faith is something which is rational by nature and has no roots, as you’ve acknowledged by your lack of an actual argument.
Now, for the hundredth time I’m going to try and give you a basic understanding of the logical absurdity that is your “you atheists need to offer proof” argument. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS NOT ON ATHIESTS OR AGNOSTICS. Agnosticism, Secularism, and Atheism are all negative claims and can’t actually be proven because there’s nothing there; as I said it’s non-belief. I, and many other non-believers feel similarly a bout this, hate the terms but do to the theocratic nature of American society using them is required. We don’t have a word for people who don’t believe in Astrology for instance (just to illustrate to you why these terms seem silly.)

Now onto the logics of your argument; agnostics/atheists are claiming there is no gods which are followed today (and before in history) have no basis in reality and there’s no evidence for their existence. You understand what this stance is like because you’re a Christian. You don’t believe in Thor, Russell’s Teapot, Scientology, Zeus, Vishnu, etcetera. Why don’t you believe in any of those deities? I’d presume it’s because you were brought up in America, a Judea-Christian nation. How do you know that your god is the right one if any god is?

You are the one claiming belief in this situation. You are the one that believes a man can survive his own death with help from a celestial being. You can say “my case is faith” but again that’s a cop out because there’s no argument or rationality there.

Now onto my final point, here is one of the most fundamental pieces of hypocrisy in your basic argument against non-believers. You said that I need to give you evidence god doesn’t exist, yet when I asked you for evidence god does exist and for you to prove it to me you responded with this gem:

So what do you expect of me to do? Even if I could offer you evidence you don’t believe that I, or yourself, have the mind capacity for it. Why ask for the impossible? What do you expect me to give you?

All my arguing so far has been from a logical/rational basis. I have yet to give you these “facts” you require for the non-existence of god and I won’t ever do that. As I said my belief isn’t in there is no god, but rather that the god you claim exists is highly improbable when it comes to my understanding of how our universe works.

Take the most fundamental belief in Christianity; it makes a claim that is scientific. You believe that Jesus died for your sins on the cross. There is no way that is all figurative it is FUNDAMENTAL to Christianity; I can’t stress this enough. Not only do you believe Jesus died for your sins though you believe he rose again (also fundamental.) I don’t believe (in my understanding of the human body), that you can die and come back after three days. I don’t understand how that is possible. Explain to me the science behind Jesus being able to do that and don’t respond with “magic” a body can’t be abandoned for three days and come back and still be usable; he was in a Middle Eastern tomb.

You also believe that your god designed the universe. This does imply that there was a sense of order and a plan. Explain to me why a super powerful being would have created such a universe as this one. Explain the extraordinary number of collapsing stars, the imploding galaxies and failed universe and solar systems. Explain to me what kind of creator would design such a product where the vast majority of it is failing, explain why we, his prize creations, have been left in this one little solar system on this one tiny little planet, which can only support life some of the time, on some of it’s surface and which 99% of its species are now extinct. What kind of perfect creator creates such an imperfect product? You can’t blame this all on the Devil and sin and the wickedness of man; it’s been happening for years and years and years.

I’d also be interested in your take on evolution (whether you believe it or not.) If you do believe and you believe the Bible is all metaphorical then I’d like you to point me to the metaphor that says Adam and Eve are a product of evolution in addition to explaining the coexistence of that theory with the Bible.

You’ve also stated (in regards to the age of the Earth) that it’s only a couple thousands of years old. You said the following:

This would still make the Earth incredibly young (I also don’t understand the basis of this belief. The Hebrew word in the original bible referred to each day as “yom” which translated to English does mean day. ) It also directly contradicts the following Biblical verse:

So if you believe that day in the Biblical sense means a thousand years than it’s really the Sabbath Millennium is it not? I’d also like to add, believing the Earth to be so young runs contradictory to everything that’s been discovered about the age of Earth. It’s the equivalent of believing the distance from San Francisco to New York is about 20 meters.

This isn’t even getting into all the reasons that I’m a nonbeliever this is just the tip of the iceberg in regards to problems I have with the Bible. I could go on about the ethical implications of such an Orwellian god (as the Christian god is) and some other inconsistencies with reality the Bible has but there is more I want to address.

You’ve entirely missed my point. For one, don’t try and reduce religion to mere social work. Many of the greatest and most charitable philanthropists have been atheistic and there are many secular organizations dedicated to helping people all around the world. Religion can’t lay claim to being the only charitable organization on Earth.

Now to…simplify my point I guess. The problem with basing your morality entirely off religion is the implications of doing so. You base your morality essentially off your faith that your god is the correct god and he will be the one to get you into the afterlife, correct? So logically it would make sense for people to use the same basis for their own morals right? In doing that you’re accepting the abuse of woman in the Middle East and you’re also accepting 9/11 as moral acts. This isn’t me twisting the argument it’s simply your own logic; they’re operating by the same rules as you are and it’s hypocrisy to deny them that. That is why I think it’s a truly repugnant idea to use faith as your moral basis when you do that you allow everyone to use their own mythology to justify their own actions, regardless of how damaging they maybe.

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sleepy jack

Logically fallacy was probably a poor choice of words but my point still remains. You are moral based on your faith and believe in Jesus; it’s embedded in Christianity that you must lead a moral life or you will be banished to hell where you will be tortured for all eternity. That is ultimately the reason religious people are moral. When you do good just for the sake of doing good that isn’t the religion driving you to do it; if the religion is driving you to do it then guess what? It’s your fear of the afterlife or your lust for eternal pleasure that drive the moral action which I would consider less moral than the person who does good merely for the sake of it.

You’re hardly answering my question and in doing so you’re avoiding the point I’m making (and the point you made about atheists.) What drives the many Catholic priests who molest little boys to molest; lust or god? If it’s the former then that directly contradicts your belief that atheism fuels immorality and shows a double standard in your own judgment which undermines all your points. If, however, you do believe it is god/religion that drives them to molest then why follow such a god? Pick your option; lust or god or the third option could be that atheists and theists are actually biologically different and once the holy spirit enters an atheist he suddenly becomes devoid of all sexual desire and it’s only once he stops believing he comes back. I’m just throwing out different options here. Explain to me why claiming to know the unknowable makes you morally superior to anyone else.

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djchameleon

I remember reading somewhere in the bible that God created in his own image and gave us free will to decide whether we want to follow his teachings or not. Of course if you don't follow his teachings or believe in him, you will not be considered "saved" and you will burn in hell.


We do have free will though that's why there was the city of Sodom and Gamorah but he decided to kill all of them because he's a loving god but he's also a vengeful god....this is according to the bible. I mean we have free will but if you believe in him and his teachings you will believe that you also go to hell if you don't say you are saved and acknowledge the fact that he died for your sins.

sleepy jack

Yeah you're still ignoring the fact (which is odd considering it was the main point of both of our posts) that the Bible also says god has a plan for each and every human being and that he knows their past, present, and future. If everything has already been predetermined and there is no free will.

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djchameleon

exactly that's why the bible is so contradictory.... there are parts that says everything is already predetermined...yet there are parts that also say we have free will.

midnight rain

This is the thing, though. God knows what kind of a person you are, he knows what kind of choices you're going to make. He's not deciding your actions for you, he just knows in advance your destiny because he knows the way your mind thinks. Chalk that up as not being free will all you want, but I disagree.

sleepy jack

That isn't free will though. Free will is the ability to make your decisions and dictate your own future. If all your choices are already known it's already been determined and ceases to be free will but rather a contrived plan.

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