SATCHMO

The primary thing that we know about pain is that we do not like it (unless your a masochist and that's a different story), but what would our lives be like without it. Whether you're willing to realize it or not the pain and suffering that you've gone through or will go through is the greatest provider of true wisdom in your life, both on a pragmatic biological level and on an emotional level.
But we know we don't like it and many of us truly never get past that. We ask god "why?!?!?" There's pain to give contrast to joy and so we can internalize and grow through the lessons that rough periods in our life provide us with. Who hasn't gone through a traumatic experience and wound up a wiser more mature person as a result. It's true, as George s. Patton said "what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger"

sleepy jack

You're kind of defeating your own argument by acknowledging war and relationships have similar causes you know. To treat it like one can exist in your ideal world and the other can't, despite having the same/similar causes is to create an inconsistent world where there's no real structure other then arbitrary lines in the sand.

I also don't understand how you can argue that individual suffering is acceptable but mass suffering is unacceptable. Why? Because people die in a war? Again this goes back to the cause - it has to deal with men with too much power and an ego complex conflicting with men of a similar nature. Or forcing themselves on no men at all but a loose array of people. It's all Hobbesian brutality though, even if it's one individual deciding they don't love another individual as opposed to entire states. It's unpleasant but when you throw more people into the conflict you're upping the stakes that much. I honestly don't understand how you can treat it one as objectively bad all the time and one as an acceptable life lesson. Besides, who's to say war doesn't touch anyone anything?

Also, again, I think you're showing your own biblical ignorance here. Sickness and so on comes from man's falling and estrangement from god. The cure for cancer is divinity, even if it's not of this world (not including when that divinity becomes of this world in the form of Jesus) and it's remaining devout during that trial that leads to that divinity (see the story of Job which argues against most of your objections.) It's the lesson learned in the suffering that makes that divinity worthwhile. If faith was never tried there would be no real conviction there, only a hollow sort of acceptance.

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sleepy jack

Now it makes sense to me.

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Inuzuka Skysword

Let me rephrase the question of this thread because it has become another atheist vs. Christianity thread. What I am asking is can we create a god for ourselves that will actually motivate use to pursue our happiness without getting in the way. An undesirable god is one that creates a justice system for us because that undermines our control over our own destiny.

Religion in the past has viewed their gods as the masters of the universe who control their lives. What if we could create a divine being in which we are the master of it or share the status of being a master with it? Of course, the one option is ourselves being gods, which we really are to a degree if you believe in free will. However, we don't have the divinity that "gods" have. So what kind of belief in a divine being would be able to sit out of our lives, but at the same time give us motivation to pursue happiness?

My idea is that instead of a religion creating us we create a religion for us that will actually benefit ourselves as individuals.

Janszoon

I would just like a god that gives me awesome, godly foot massages at the end of every day.

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A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

TheBig3

I feel like this is putting the cart before the horse, and implying that these gods exist. The gods aren't asking us to give up our rational mind, our rational mind is creating explanations for things we can't rationalize.

Zeus was created from a lack of understanding, and lightning.

Well its going to be Christianity vs. something if you're directly challenging the dominate religion in the anglo-sphere.

And Why would anyone but an atheist go about creating gods?

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Inuzuka Skysword

What I am saying is that the religions that most people follow tell people to abandon themselves. I think this is a problem because in order for your self to be happy you must be-in-yourself.

I never implied that any sort of divine or spiritual exists. I am merely saying that if there is a positive aspect to believing in the divine and spiritual, how can we keep this while at the same time getting rid of the idea that god is more powerful than you and etc.

Because really, what if there is a positive to believing in a divine power? We don't just believe things because we think they are true, at least that isn't how I work. I personally take stances on things based on how I will benefit in the end aka what will lead me to happiness. So what if believing in the divine is part of achieving happiness? Then there must be some way to contain the belief in the divine without believing in divinity that they hinder our ability to exist ourselves or there is some divine punishment for choosing to live.

Basically, I ave already stated why Christianity is not the religion that is acceptable to this idea. Christianity states that there is a god above man that can interrupt man whenever he wants. It also say that you should believe in a morality based on the reason that the morality exists in a sacred text. That belief alone undermines the human.

See, I am not thinking about religion as it is traditionally thought out. Traditionally, God is the master and we are the slave. What I am saying is can we use the idea of god to make god our slave. What I mean is can we benefit at all in believing in a divine power that is limited to the extent where man becomes equal to it? Would it be cutting to the chase to view Man himself as the god of the universe?

SATCHMO

What is stopping us from embracing our own divinity other than a handful of outmoded beliefs? The attributes that we ascribe to God are a transference of our own human qualities both good and bad. We say that God is vengeful because we are vengeful. We say God is compassionate because we have the capacity for compassion.
I'm speaking from a Judeo-Christian perspective simply because, as big3 previously reminded us most of our cultural upbringing has been in the "anglosphere" where our religious conditioning, theist or atheist, has been largely of the Christian paradigm.
If we truly believe God to be perfect and holy then we cannot ascribe qualities to "him" that we have already been lead to believe are "sin" such as wrath. we are culturally conditioned to believe in a God that has negative qualities that aren't inherently "his", but rather qualities we've ascribed to "him". If you at any point in time see yourself as a slave to God, then you are really a slave to a religion's influence on your perception of God.

Inuzuka Skysword

That is what I am trying to say. In the past, religion told us that the god was our master and we were the slave. I am not saying I necessarily believe this. What I am asking is what is the best perception of god for an individualist if there is even a perception that benefits him. What kind of perception would benefit that individual? Monotheism or polytheism? A deist god or one who wants to intervene? A god of judgment or a god of tolerance? I think that by default the god must be equal to man or less than man, but if he is less than men then he cannot be truly considered a god. He would simply be divine.

anticipation

the perfect god is making the game-winning shot with two seconds left on the clock,
the perfect god is kissing your best gal on the boardwalk while watching a sunset,
the perfect god is a corner office at an advertising firm on michigan avenue.