anticipation

i'm against feminism because it asserts that men and women should be treated to men, when they are clearly not. I know that sounds horrible, but hear me out. When feminists get all upset that men are instantly assigned to tasks or given positions of power over women and assume it's "just because they are men". I've got news for you, who gives a ****? Men and women are instinctually more apt at certain tasks than others, be it nurturing children for women, or physical dominance and a sense of leadership in men. There will never, and I mean never be a world where men and women perform the same social functions at equal levels, so why hope for it? It makes absolutley no sense. Feminists demonize competitve attitude and male pride to no end, but have men ever attacked the natural characteristics of grace and sensitivity in women? Why hate something you are powerless to change? All I'm saying is that men and women are not, and will never be, total equals, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

VeggieLover

Your assertion makes sense, if all men were the same and all women were the same. Unfortunatly, it isnt that easy. I know a whole lot of women who are not graceful, never will be, and who would be terrible at raising a child. I also know a lot of skinny little dudes with no physical dominance or leadership in their bodies. Some women are stronger than some men (physically and otherwise). True, these are in the minority, but that doesn't mean they should be discriminated against just because they're women. The point isn't to achieve 50% representation in every exisiting feild. Its all about the opportunity to perform to ones best ability, whatever that ability may be. men and women do have distinct roles they need to play, but those roles can include a lot more than we generally assume.

I suppose it all rests on abolishing the gender stereotypes and generalizations.

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

anticipation

I know that generalizations aren't accurate perceptions of reality, but that's what many feminists use. I'd like it if so many people didn't talk about why they should be equal, but rather prove they should be equal in real life.. This is something that very few feminists do.

VeggieLover

Touche, id have to agree with you on that one, people should focus less on flashy shows of power and rebellion and concentrate more on the actual application of what they preach. However, that doesn't change the fact that you yourself employed stereotypes to argue your point.
Don't you just love that place where we all discover our own hypocrisy??
Hopefully im doing an ok job of applying what I preach in real life :S I am a feminist i suppose, but most people wouldn't really be able to tell. I'm just the hard working smart girl with the big eyes lol.

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

Wayfarer

Wow. You do realize that people don't exactly have exhaustive control over their appearances, yeah?

How in the blue hell would the establishment of a classless society entail ridding ourselves of cultural diversity?

Yes, because throughout the entire world, women are treated, without exception, as equals, and nothing less, right?

Nyesus, just because some friend of your mommy's is now, thanks to the feminist movement, able to earn over $60,000 a year doesn't necessarily mean that women throughout the "third world" are being treated as equals. To claim that there's "nothing left for feminist activists to do" is just bloody ridiculous and almost cheerfully ignorant.

Forgive me for traipsing a bit off-topic here, but had you actually read the Bible (which, in light of this quote of yours, I'm left to assume that you haven't), you'd be well-aware that the Westboro Baptist Church absolutely represents the ideals of "true" Christians. "Fundamentalist", or "literalist" Christianity is, in effect, the only "true" Christianity, when one considers that, if left open to personal interpretation, the Bible can be construed as an authorization of just about anything, thus rendering "Christianity" meaningless. The simple act of reading the Bible and having your perspective on life mildly reformed makes you about as much a "Christian" as the simple act of reading Nineteen Eighty-Four and having my perspective on life mildly reformed makes me an Orwellist.

Were she attractive (in your eyes), but behaved in precisely the same manner, would you be doing this much complaining about it? Also, how exactly is she "cramming it down people's fucking throats"? By appearing on magazine covers? By appearing on stage in skimpy outfits? She's not "cramming" her apparent unattractiveness down our throats any more than a myriad of blonde Hollywood actresses are shoving their apparent attractiveness down our throats. It appears, to me, at least, that you do, in fact, hate her because she's "ugly".

And all of this after you spend a night ripping on Christopher Hitchens for being a supposed "sexist jerk".

VeggieLover

Hooray for Wayfarer!!!!!!!!!

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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

anticipation

Not really, if you think about it there are people who fit those stereotypes, and those people are usually the center of the argument and recieve the most discrimination. I just said that men who exhibit those qualities are naturally that way, not that everyone is like that.

Neapolitan

Forgive me for traipsing a bit off-topic here, Are you pulling his chain? Are you kidding? I took a quick look at "The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC)" on wiki and I couldn't believe what I was reading, not one good thing WBC had to say about any of the other Christian denominations. I think they are well passed extremist's veiw point on anything. I wouldn't call them Christian, nor would I say they have an ideal of Christianity.

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Astronomer

I agree with most of your argument boobs in that modern radical feminism is bullshit - it's going backwards and just getting ridiculous. Decades ago, feminists fought for the freedom of women to wear what they like and do what they like. They wanted to be able to wear what they liked in public and not be shunned for it. But now, if a woman chooses to wear something in public like a mini-skirt, all these radical feminists will accuse her of forfeiting her rights as a woman or some shit.

So I do agree with you in that radical feminism is a bit ridiculous. To me, the whole point of feminism is that women should have a choice to do what they want. If they choose to wear lipstick and girly clothing than that's fine! If they choose to stay at home and be a housewife then great. Radical feminists who go against all of these things are just taking away that choice for women and it seems silly to me.

Secondly, I just want to say that I do consider myself a feminist and I am involved in a lot of feminist/ women rights groups at uni. And I can say that I rarely, rarely come across people as extreme as you have described. I also want to say that feminism DOES still hold a large significance in society. Females still do not have the same rights as men, written and unwritten.

One example I can think of this is in the workplace. Research has demonstrated that a man will most likely be a hired for a job over a woman because the woman will be seen as a 'less reliable' worker because she may get pregnant and then want maternity leave. When I got pregnant I was dismissed from my job completely. They told me it was because the business was quietening down and they had no choice but to let go of a lot of workers, but it just seemed too coincidental that I was the ONLY ONE who was dismissed and it was within a week of them finding out that I was pregnant. I was then unable to get another job after that because noone would hire me.

Sexual harassment is also still a huge problem, inside the workplace and outside. A lot of men feel that they can say derogatory/ sexual things to women or treat them as sex objects and that this is fine because they are a women; an attitude that needs to be changed. Rape and abuse towards women is also a huge issue in society - most people who are raped or sexually assaulted are women. Again, this comes down to a fucked-up attitude that a lot of people hold about women that needs to be changed.

I went to get a quote to get my car fixed the other day, and the mechanic I spoke to was an incredible chauvinist and treated me like I was some bimbo who knew nothing about cars. The quote he gave me to fix my car was $4,100. I asked my boyfriend to go up there and get a quote for the same thing on my car. He saw the same guy, requested the same things, on my car, and came back with a quote for $3,200.

This kind of **** happens all the time; women still do not have the same rights and advantages as men do.

THAT BEING SAID, I completely agree with those who have said that radical feminism is stupid. Because it is. Radical feminists are hypocritical because in their plight to gain women more rights they're actually taking away a lot of choices for women. They are not fighting for equal rights between the sexes (which is what feminism should be about) but instead a quite man-hating and hypocritical.

But I do believe that feminism, true feminism, still plays a major role in society. I'm probably going to get flamed for this by all the males on this site but I just want to say that you have no idea what it's like waking up in the morning and having to fight for your rights as a person every day, and what it's like being fired from a job or not being hired for a job just because you were born with a vagina and ovaries.

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Neapolitan

Dear Miss Misandry,

Do you really want to buy all the males on this site?

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