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Old 08-21-2009, 09:25 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Radical Feminism *WARNING* There is a pic of Beth Ditto involved

For whatever reason, I feel like having a huge rant about this and rest assured it's gonna piss some people off.

I have a lot of problems with feminism, or at least how a lot of feminists prevent themselves, and their idealization of what women should be like (which is to basically be men with vaginas, or so it seems these days at least) is just as oppressive and constricting as what they are rallying against. It's just hypocritical bullsh*t.

It served a great purpose once, but now it's just as oppressive to women as chauvinism, it needs to die.

Now of course I'm not talking about all feminists. But I have a deep resentment for those who try to make other women feel that their feminity is something to be ashamed of, isn't that the opposite of feminism? Feminity is natural.

No, it's not obligation for all women to wear lipstick and have a great body. But for a lot of women it IS just natural beauty and natural behavior that makes them "feminine", and the radical feminists who make an issue out of that, to hell with them. Stop trying to make us miserable.

Yeah some of you are gonna say "but that's not what feminism is about", I'm not saying it is but it sure f*cking seems like it.

Women have much higher standards of men than men do of women and that's just a plain fact, and I'd go as far as to say they're even more unrealistic. And why is it that we as men be ashamed for finding women with large breasts attractive? How often do men protest how men are portrayed in films and the unrealistic standards women have when it comes to masculine beauty? Yeah that's right, never.

And that's problem number 1, it's like radical feminists want to insure that we never get an erection ever again. And it's like whenever a woman is proud of her beauty and flaunts it, she's being a bad role model and a whore, while when men do it, they're just being men, duh. I mean they'll gripe about anything, they gripe about the f*cking chicks in Disney movies for crying out loud.

It's like men having an idealized, fantastical vision of female beauty is inherently wrong, and it's not. So the f*ck what? Escapism, I see nothing wrong with it, I mean when feminists rant about sexism in movies, cartoons and video games, it's f*cking stupid. Why does it matter if the women are unrealistically attractive? It's fantasy, does it need to be realistic? No.

Talking animals, genies, mermaids, sorcerers, fine and dandy. Attractive women who need to be rescued because they're too weak to fight the bad guy? Yeah, first off, women who are weaker than men? Yeah, I don't care if it's fantasy, such a thing obviously doesn't f*cking exist, any woman in a movie should be expected to kick anyones ass, just like any woman in real life is built like a pro wrestler. And even women like that who can kick ass, can be considered bad role models too, cuz they have boobs, OMFG.

That's problem number two, radical feminists seem to be ashamed of their feminity and the simple fact that they're actually different from us, instead of being proud of the traits that make them different from men, which I would think is what feminism should REALLY be about, no, instead feminism thinks there should be no distinction between the two sexes at all.

That makes about as much sense as black people trying to make themselves white in order to be "equal". Clearly they don't even know what that word means, "equal". Equal doesn't mean "to be exactly the f*cking same". We have d*cks, you don't. DEAL WITH IT.

Look at it this way, I have nothing personal against fat, ugly, puss spewing abominations against god Lesbians who smell like bacon gone bad (ok, I do actually) but please stop giving us sh*t because that's not what turns us on.

If the point of feminism was to give women the same opportunities as men, then great, we're closer to that goal then ever, so why all the bitching? We're not this society that forces women to be stay at home moms anymore. What purpose does feminism have now? Yes I know the media is full of bad role models for women like Paris Hilton, but it has just as many bad male role models, and this is never gonna change. Feminism can't solve this problem because all it does is try to make others feel ashamed of themselves when they shouldn't be.

And problem number 3 with radical feminism is how it discriminates against women who not only pride their feminity but their maternity and "homemaker" role in a relationship as well.

To me this is not any different than how women used to be treated, only now the idealism of what a women should be has changed. The original idea was that a women shouldn't be constricted to being a stay at home mom or being constricted to being a sex object, she should be entitled to be whatever she wants to be.

But now, if a women chooses to be a stay at home mom or actually pride her physical beauty and making her man happy. Then she's either a mindless slave or a slut. Basically it's saying all women have to be abrasive and never passive, even though it's natural for both men AND women to be passive.

This is just as oppressive if not more, a lot of (not all) women I find, are just naturally feminine, just as a lot of men (not all) are naturally masculine. I don't discriminate against women who are masculine or men who are feminine. Point is they're two distinct characteristics which often attract each other, that's why we assume the opposing roles we have. We don't have to assume these roles, but we shouldn't be villified because we choose to take them.

Some of you will be quick to call me a sexist because you didn't quite get my point. I'm not sexist, I love women, and not just because of sexual attraction. A woman doesn't have to be confined to being feminine or sexually attractive but I don't see anything wrong with a woman actually taking pride in her feminity, and the fact that this is the message radical feminists are projecting greatly disturbs me. I think I'm more feminist than a lot of women who call themselves feminist, because I don't think feminity is some force of f*cking evil.

The goal of modern radical feminists really makes no sense. It's not based on any real logic or respect for humanity, it's based around jealously and bitterness, and this is just another form of bigotry.

Feel free to rip me a new one here. But for the lot of you who doesn't think feminism is doing a lot of harm, may I remind you?



K, thx for reading.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Mostly with you on this. I think the main problem stems from two things. Firstly the fact that Feminism contains such a broad scope of ideology that you get real whacknuts lumped in with perfectly reasonable people. Secondly that the term Equalist would be better to define people who want to see women on an equal footing to men (and it would also remove the gender bias from the name of the ideology) and mean the term Feminist is freed up to be used as a derogatory term for the broad shouldered, Adam's appled women supremacists without also being an attack on people with genuine, real world concerns.

If you want to grow your armpit hair, burn your bra's and run around the streets naked revelling of the glory that is the female form I whole heartedly encourage it. With the exception of bra burning (because I own none) I may even be tempted to join in, though my revelling at the glory of the female form will prove to be more a spectator sport.

If you think women should have equal pay (for equal work) and equal job opportunities, that where possible the Government should work to achieve this and enforce that companies can't deny work to a woman purely because they're a woman I whole heartedly agree. These are noble ideals that we should all work towards.

If you think it should be enforced through magic means that 50% plus of Government, company CEOs and other high end jobs should see female representation. If you think women should be career people (and don't mistake me for saying that they shouldn't be either) and that men should be (and don't mistake me for saying that men shouldn't be either) the ones wearing the pinnies and raising the children then I think you've gone off the deep end.

Everybody is different and everybody's situation alters based on so many factors. While I'm not against women in high powered job positions in the slightest it should be based on their skills and their merits entirely and nothing to do with what they have between their legs. The more qualified and competent person should work the job and the selection shouldn't be biased based on gender in either direction (my stance is the same for affirmative action and ethnic minorities). Some women want to be career people who work for a living, and they find and marry men who are perfectly happy taking on the role of house husband and I say good for them. Some women want to stay at home and raise the kids and find husbands who want well paid high powered careers to bring in the money and again I say good for them. Radical feminists make the same mistake that chauvinists do in decided that there are roles that anybody should be expected to conform to, instead of accepting that everybody is an individual with individual needs and wants.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:44 AM   #3 (permalink)
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To whoever edited the title.

HAR HAR HAR!!! I see what you did there.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:47 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Radical feminists make the same mistake that chauvinists do in decided that there are roles that anybody should be expected to conform to, instead of accepting that everybody is an individual with individual needs and wants.
Bingo, that's pretty much what I was saying.

Seriously people, is it that hard to understand?

My impression of modern feminism is basically a bunch morbidly obese shemale goth kids who want to punish every single one of us because we'd rather f*ck something else. I know that's not what REAL feminism is, but they have really abused whatever meaning that word hate.

It's a f*cking mockery now

And seriously gals, if fit attractive women who use their sexuality to get ahead are really the bad role models you say they are, why does this country have the highest obesity rate in the f*cking world? There's more women on the street looking like Beth Ditto these days than Megan Fox.

I also don't know how women using their sexuality to get what they want (that is, without being a whore) is a "constriction" of all f*cking things. Are you kidding me?

That to me is the greatest hypocrisy. Men are pretty much EXPECTED to flaunt their sexuality, and women love them for it. But if women do it then of course they're good for nothing slutwhores. And feminists continue to feed this retarded stereotype.

THANKS A LOT FEMINISTS. You're really sticking up for your gender alright.

*Sarcasm*
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I have a lot of problems with feminism, or at least how a lot of feminists prevent themselves, and their idealization of what women should be like (which is to basically be men with vaginas, or so it seems these days at least) is just as oppressive and constricting as what they are rallying against. It's just hypocritical bullsh*t.

It served a great purpose once, but now it's just as oppressive to women as chauvinism, it needs to die.

Now of course I'm not talking about all feminists. But I have a deep resentment for those who try to make other women feel that their feminity is something to be ashamed of, isn't that the opposite of feminism? Feminity is natural.

If the point of feminism was to give women the same opportunities as men, then great, we're closer to that goal then ever, so why all the bitching?

And problem number 3 with radical feminism is how it discriminates against women who not only pride their feminity but their maternity and "homemaker" role in a relationship as well.

To me this is not any different than how women used to be treated, only now the idealism of what a women should be has changed. The original idea was that a women shouldn't be constricted to being a stay at home mom or being constricted to being a sex object, she should be entitled to be whatever she wants to be.

But now, if a women chooses to be a stay at home mom or actually pride her physical beauty and making her man happy. Then she's either a mindless slave or a slut. Basically it's saying all women have to be abrasive and never passive, even though it's natural for both men AND women to be passive.
Hey boo boo,

I see feminism as simply support for "political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" and organized activity on behalf of this goal. (feminism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).

Feminism does challenge assumptions about categories of people, especially when there is a long history of people being *forced* into those categories by social norms and governmental laws.

Ideally, feminism supports people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, to be who *they* want to be (ultra-focused on fulfilling their culture's gender norms, or completely opposed to those norms) and do the jobs/life activities *they* want to do (stay-home dad, stay-home mom, working dad, working mom, etc.) without being constrained by unequal social burdens and laws.

I agree with you that anyone who is trying to make someone else feel shame about herself or himself is not supporting this ideal of equal opportunity. I feel that no one, whether male, female, transgender, etc., should be made to feel bad about who that person is or wants to be.

I am a feminist and as such there are many causes I support. For example, if men want to grow their hair long, women want to cut their hair short, etc., that is fine and what affects only their body should be their choice. Men are subjected to many unfair practices that I would like to see end: men are drafted while usually women are not (well, actually I oppose any draft but if there is one it shouldn't use gender as a method of discriminating); men are sometimes ridiculed if they want to stay home with the kids; men may be ridiculed if they have long hair; many boys, especially in the U.S., are forced to undergo genital cutting (circumcision) that destroys their foreskins, the most sensitive part of their erogenous external genitalia); men are told they shouldn't be passive, emotional, etc.

I am especially sensitive to women being encouraged to think of themselves primarily in sexual ways because historically in the U.S. women were confined to a subservient, sexual role (not allowed rights in marriage, not able to be divorced if they didn't have kids, not able to play sports because it would "hurt their reproductive systems," etc.). So, when I see a woman who is fitting herself in the stereotype of what "feminine" is, I always ask myself why she is doing this. Does she want to for positive reasons or because she is afraid and feels she *has* to? There is a big difference. Women who wear make-up sometimes actually feel uncomfortable without it on and don't want to go out in public, fearing people will think they are ugly, which I feel is very sad. Similarly, when I see men with short hair (which includes most men), I conclude many of them get their hair cut almost religiously every month because deep down they feel fear of non-conformity, which is ironic, because short hair is supposed to symbolize strength!

I don't view feminists as opposing people appreciating sexuality and attraction and differences among people, as long as those people are able to be who they want to be for positive reasons rather than negative reasons. There is still a lot of social pressure to be "feminine" or "masculine" (as typically defined within a culture) as opposed to "gender-neutral," and usually social pressure can be quite vicious and most people are afraid not to give in.

For example, I used to shave my body hair (legs, underarms) when I was in my early 20's, even though I hated shaving more and more: I didn't like the fact that people were telling me there was something wrong with my body and thus I was supposed to shave (whereas men weren't told to shave *their* legs and underarms); I didn't like the blood from nicks; I didn't like the prickly stubble on my legs when they touched in bed. So, when I was 25, I decided I'd had enough of this social norm that claims, illogically, that women are supposed to not have hair and thus should cut it off. Hmm...if women didn't naturally have hair, then there would be no *need* to shave most of their body!! So, I stopped shaving and for years have been the happy owner of all my body hair...and thanks to my genotype we are not talking a light fluff of down, here!

People occasionally ridicule me nastily in public when I wear shorts, with my (gasp) leg hair showing, but on the positive side violating a constrictive, social norm quickly shows you who your true friends are...people who like you for who you are. I often feel like a natural science specimen, such as when I go swimming and all the 12-year-old girls in the showers (going through their Miley Cyrus phase) stare at me and my hair with shock...they have never seen a fully natural woman before. Lifeguards cluster around and stare at me like I'm a baboon in a zoo. People are not used to seeing someone who is not afraid of social rejection and not afraid of her own body.

Boo boo, while the fight for human equality in social, economic, and political arenas has made great strides in many places in the last 150 years (because of much, much, much effort on the part of feminist women and feminist men), feminism is still very much needed in the world, especially since women in many cultures are still valued less than men (and given fewer opportunities, less education, less food, etc.).

I would say that one psychological issue I wrestle with, in all honesty...and perhaps this does relate to the feminism as you describe it...is that sometimes I *do* wish I could feel a protected, cherished, "Knight-on-White-Horse is going to defend me" kind of feeling, yet I find myself trying to fight that desire for many reasons: I feel it is important to be self-dependent; I feel I should not rely on others psychologically, because that is unfair to them. It is hard for me to admit emotional vulnerability. Though I think this may be true for many people, whether male or female, it is likely that my conflicting desire to be vulnerable and also *not* be vulnerable relates to my upbringing, which encouraged each person to be her own individual (a feminist belief).
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:10 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Second wave feminism is mostly responsible for the degradation of woman who aren't rough and tough. Third wave is more modern, it has to do with personal empowerment. Bikini Kill wrote words like "bitch" and "slut" on them during a concert to prove they are just words, and they dress however slutty they want- that's the idea, is that it doesn't matter.

Even so, there is a considerable difference between choosing to be skanky looking because you want to (I don't know who would want to) and doing so in order to feel good about yourself. Third Wave feminism, again, I don't think have any problem with these woman. Maybe they have some anger as they understand why she is dressing that way, but I'm sure it's mostly a considerable amount empathy as it's a universal struggle.

By universal, I really do mean universal. I think your not thinking hard enough, for instance, would you ever wear a dress? So, who exactly says you can't wear a dress? Who would have a problem with you wearing a dress? Why? See, it's not just woman, feminism is for equal rights- especially socially speaking. There are social rules connected to both woman and men, which lead to judging. This judging is what we grow-up in, so it seems normal, but it's hard to find acceptance when nobody around has any shred of humility past the "rules". You would be surprised how self-destructive some people can become from not having acceptance, it is an emotional need you know.

In conclusion, I disagree with you. Most feminism today is 3rd wave and focused on self-empowerment, not the judging of other females like 2nd wave feminism. You have to understand, there has been a great, great deal of oppression against females even up to today. Society has it's rules, it's unrealistic (and perfectionist) expectations, and it's glorification of unhealthy and degrading behaviors, and that in and of itself is oppressing. Honestly I'm not super-educated on this subject, but I know my points are really just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe next time you feel a resentment against something you should research it before you condemn it, as feminism is probably working for you to have rights you don't even realize your being striped of.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The way you characterize feminism does not reflect what I think I see of it over here, but then again we are far apart. What I see of feminism here has more in common with Sex and the City and what Schizo describes. It's a bit like women have come a long way the last two decades and more and some of those of my generation and perhaps just a bit older are still figuring out a bit who they are now or want to be with the progress in equality and freedom. Celebrating the female traits rather than trying to be something they're not also seems like a popular idea ..

It all makes sense over here so I've got no real beef with it :p
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:09 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hey boo boo,

I see feminism as simply support for "political, economic, and social equality of the sexes"
Well until I can think of another term for bitter jabba the huts waging a war on feminity, feminists will have to do.

Quote:
Feminism does challenge assumptions about categories of people, especially when there is a long history of people being *forced* into those categories by social norms and governmental laws.
And now feminists are trying to do the same thing but with the roles reversed.

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Ideally, feminism supports people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, to be who *they* want to be
That's the key word. And how often do growing political movements fully live up to their original intentions? Yeah, that's what I thought.

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I am a feminist and as such there are many causes I support. For example, if men want to grow their hair long, women want to cut their hair short, etc.,

Lol, I'm not debating with you there.

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that is fine and what affects only their body should be their choice. Men are subjected to many unfair practices that I would like to see end: men are drafted while usually women are not; men are sometimes ridiculed if they want to stay home with the kids; men may be ridiculed if they have long hair; many boys, especially in the U.S., are forced to undergo genital cutting (circumcision) that destroys their foreskins, the most sensitive part of their erogenous external genitalia); men are told they shouldn't be passive, emotional, etc.
Again these are things I'm with you 100% on. I do find myself to be very disgusted with men who have ridiculously high standards for what women should be. Especially those who enforce their opinions on the matter, like that not only are women with short hair or tattoos or face piercings sexually undesirable, but it's also immoral and being a bad role model.

My only point is feminists do the same when they basically tell women to reject their feminity and be total c*nts to women that don't.

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I am especially sensitive to women being encouraged to think of themselves primarily in sexual ways because historically in the U.S. women were confined to a subservient, sexual role
Yeah but men are held to a lot of social standards as well. And nobody complains when men sell their sexuality, or express it in a way that the other sex finds attractive.

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So, when I see a woman who is fitting herself in the stereotype of what "feminine" is, I always ask myself why she is doing this. Does she want to for positive reasons or because she is afraid and feels she *has* to? There is a big difference. Women who wear make-up sometimes actually feel uncomfortable without it on and don't want to go out in public, fearing people will think they are ugly, which I feel is very sad.
Again I understand what you mean. Problem with a lot of feminists is they generalize about their gender and just assume that no woman on earth is naturally feminine (which is f*cking stupid and anti-scientific), that they cant possibly be comfortble with looking attractive and that they only do it because of what men want. I think this is false because I think people care just as much about how they think of their appearance as other people think of their appearance.

Either way, I find it hilarious that these idiots think the only thing keeping all women from being fat lesbians with buzzcuts is that the man is keeping them down.

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I don't view feminists as opposing people appreciating sexuality and attraction and differences among people, as long as those people are able to be who they want to be for positive reasons rather than negative reasons.
Again, it's the Beth Ditto types that are the object of my rage. I think they just come up with their own idea of what EVERY woman truly wants, which apparrently is to be as horrifically fat and ugly as they are.

Ok, I'm clearly being a meanie here. But eh, I really f*cking hate people like that.

Quote:
There is still a lot of social pressure to be "feminine" or "masculine" (as typically defined within a culture) as opposed to "gender-neutral," and usually social pressure can be quite vicious and most people are afraid not to give in.
Sure. But we're more free to do what we want than we've ever been before. We should embrace diversity. But I feel that for some bitter women it's not enough, they want to get rid of everything men find more sexually desirable than they are.

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So, when I was 25, I decided I'd had enough of this social norm that claims, illogically, that women are supposed to not have hair and thus should cut it off. Hmm...if women didn't naturally have hair, then there would be no *need* to shave most of their body!! So, I stopped shaving and for years have been the happy owner of all my body hair...and thanks to my genotype we are not talking a light flluff of down, here!
Well I'm happy that you have the courage and confidence to do that.

Though I admit that hairy legs on a girl really grosses me out. But as long as I don't tell women to shave their legs, they shouldn't make me feel bad because I have different standards of beauty.

A running gag here is that I have a strange fetish for women with shaved heads. And I do hate the attitute people give me for it as well as how men treat those that go for the bald look.

"lulz it's britney spears. so umm.... are you a cancer patient, lesbo or nazi?"

What never made sense to me is, if women are expected to shave their legs, armpit hair and pubic regions why not their hair or eyebrows? Why is that such a taboo?

For me it's all about consistancy.

Quote:
People occasionally ridicule me nastily in public when I wear shorts, with my (gasp) leg hair showing, but on the positive side violating a constrictive, social norm quickly shows you who your true friends are...people who like you for who you are. I often feel like a natural science specimen, such as when I go swimming and all the 12-year-old girls in the showers (going through their Miley Cyrus phase) stare at me and my hair with shock...they have never seen a fully natural woman before. Lifeguards cluster around and stare at me like I'm a baboon in a zoo. People are not used to seeing someone who is not afraid of social rejection and not afraid of her own body.
Well I used to have really long hair and thus people picked on me for that.

I admire that you do what you want with your body. But just like I don't tell men with short hair that they're materialistic slaves, I hope you don't do the same for women who shave their legs.

Everyone has their own standard of beauty. And while it's easy to assume that not all women are comfortable with having to shave their legs, I'm sure there's a lot who do prefer it. Because everyone likes to look a certain way, and not only because of what other people think. A lot of guys like to shave their beards and heads simply out of comfort, so I'm sure a lot of women shave their legs for the same reason.

I don't mind chicks with hairy pits for example. And while I find hairy legs on women to be unattractive that doesn't mean I'm oppressing women.

I really have a problem with so called anti-conformists who discreit anyone for having a popular opinion and not acknowledge that just because they're doing something popular doesn't mean they're not thinking for themselves.

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Boo boo, while the fight for human equality in social, economic, and political arenas has made great strides in many places in the last 150 years (because of much, much, much effort on the part of feminist women and feminist men), feminism is still very much needed in the world, especially since women in many cultures are still valued less than men (and given fewer opportunities, less education, less food, etc.).
That is true. But I think in the western world, modern feminism become another force of oppression. A lot of movements that started to liberate something or someone end up turning to fascism and bigotry, I see the feminist movement taking that route.

Quote:
I would say that one psychological issue I wrestle with, in all honesty...and perhaps this does relate to the feminism as you describe it...is that sometimes I *do* wish I could feel a protected, cherished, "Knight-on-White-Horse is going to defend me" kind of feeling, yet I find myself trying to fight that desire for many reasons: I feel it is important to be self-dependent.
The point is, not all women are abrasive like that just as not all men aren't.

I think the more radical feminists are under the misguided impression that ALL women want to be GI Jane, that's my issue. And the fact is that the great majority of women are passive and vulnerable, and have been for ages. And because art reflects culture, it's stupid for feminists to rant about how the media depicts women as being passive and vulnerable when so many of them are, that's reflecting the culture, not enforcing it. And trying to completely erase men's ideal of female beauty and character from existance when we have the right to our ideals is not the way to do it.

Again, that's just how I feel. I feel that a lot of feminists only want to challenge these social norms because they want to create norms of their own. And a lot of them seem to go about it in a morally imperialistic way.
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'd say I'm opposed to feminism as a movement simply because it's essentially petty-bourgeois identity politics.
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