SATCHMO

On some level and in certain circumstances there is a resignation to accept and trust that which lies beyond our own current understanding. You can use the mundane analogy of stepping on an aircraft to take a flight. None of us would consider it justified to inspect the entire aircraft ourselves to see that it is structurally and mechanically sound before agreeing to take the flight. In this we are engaging in an act of passive or, in the case of some individuals, active faith. It need not be believing in things which do not apparently exist in time and space, but rather, if you have adopted any view of reality that is beyond 100% certainty, and you utilize that view of reality in some way to navigate through life, you are exercising faith.

I am not acting as a proponent or opponent of atheism or humanism. I think people should adopt whatever worldview that allows them to navigate reality with the highest degree of happiness for themselves, while causing the least amount of harm to others. For some that is Christianity; for others it is not (including many self-professed Christians). For some that is Islam; for others it is not (including many self-professed muslims). For some that is atheism; for others it is not (including many self-professed atheists), etc. etc. ad nausea.

Anteater

Best post on the thread so far. Kudos Satch!

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Odyshape

This reminds me a lot Viktor Frankl

Inuzuka Skysword

There is a pretty big difference between the idea of trusting the aircraft and acknowledging the existence of a god. There is evidence pointing towards the idea that the aircraft is safe. There is no evidence of god.

Why would religion make people happy? What does a religion have that understanding does not which enables one to be happier?

If I am wrong, that has little to do with the potential of the human mind to be right. I affirm the potential for it to be right, not the fact that it will always be right.

The mind validates itself. You cannot know whether something is or isn't without knowing itself. You mind has to have the capacity to know in order to know whether you do know or you don't know. By saying that you don't know something, you still affirm the validity of the human mind's potential to know.

mr dave

how is that possible? are you somehow infallible? maybe a little on the omnipotent side instead?

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i am the universe

chiron

What I'd like to know is whether someone who has lived all his life without anyone ever mentioning the concept of god or a higher power feel the need for something like that from within.

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Exterminate all rational thought.

Unicorn

Apparently it has happened otherwise the concept of religion as it originated with our ancestors would not be.

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<witty quote>

MAStudent

I would say no. If you were raised by wolves on a desert island, you should encounter the real things in the world that exist. You would actually be free to name them as you saw fit. Allah, Eloh, Dios, Wakantankeh, watever you call it, God- if God is real you should encounter it, just like dirt, bananas, wind, loneliness, etc

SATCHMO

The airplane analogy was not given for the purpose of showing that there is a god, but to demonstrate that humans engage in acts of faith on a fairly regular basis, whether or not we are consciously aware of it. There is a tendency to believe that faith is an act that is engaged in only when there is no empirical evidence to support what we believe. That is simply not true, which is why atheism requires every bit as much faith as theism does.

This presents a point of contention that I have with both sides of the theism issue, so in answering it I can only give you my own particular views, although I'm sure that they do represent the views of many others.

First, the term religion is a bit of a slippery one to work with. For one it represents a socio-political organization that is structured around a particular spiritual belief structure. There are people who have absolutely no affiliation with a particular religion and it's corresponding believe structure that receive a great deal of happiness through their own spiritual practices. Conversely, there are those that are actively involved in a particular religion that are miserable and simply use their religion for the actuation of their own misery. If being involved in a religion does not elevate one's consciousness then all one has done in becoming involved in one is joined a club, literally. Spirituality is, and religion should be, for the purpose of transcending the ego, and elevating one's level of consciousness.

There are many trappings that go along with our reliance on the ego, and while our ego does play a very important and practical part in navigating our reality, it is a very deceptive component of our psyche, as it forces us to be completely reliant on our sensory perceptions and the subjective way in which we analyze the respective data it provides us to formulate an assessment regarding the condition of our life, i.e. If something that we perceive as being "good" happens, we are happy. If something that we perceive as being "bad" happens, we are unhappy. Essentially we put ourselves in the situation where we are not just simply at the mercy of our external circumstances to dictate the quality of our life, we are at the mercy of our judgment regarding our perception of these circumstances to dictate the quality of our life.

Now what happens when we acknowledge the fact that these judgments that we make too many times a day to even mention, both consciously and unconsciously, are at best subjective, and at worst unreliable and even erroneous? I mean it is true, as much as you would like to be a proponent of the rational mind and its capacity for reasoning, the human mind's ability to comprehend the true nature of causality is extremely limited and the ego-driven mind is very much challenged to see anything circumstantial in anything but a non-linear way. What happens when we come to the understanding that the judgments that we make regarding the circumstances of our reality are anything but objective and rational, and have just as much impact on what we perceive as being our reality as the circumstances themselves? What happens when we rely instead on that which cannot be seen, but transcends the ego? The answer is that "happiness" becomes much less contingent upon, if not independent of, the external circumstances which we perceive as being reality, commensurately with the level at which our consciousness has been elevated through whatever spiritual practices we may happen to engage in, be they effective, or effectively practiced, at least.

If one chooses to "place their faith" in the minds ability to objectively apprehend and understand that which the senses provide it, over that which cannot be understood or apprehended through empirical means, then the purpose that human beings have for attempting to commune with the divine cannot be understood. In effect, the use of spiritual practice to transcend the trappings of the ego is the only way to bring about unconditional, true happiness, joy, which is not contingent upon external circumstances. And as anyone who has had an experience of this nature, be it momentary or long-term, it is well above and beyond any experience of happiness that can be provided through our own perception of what we would deem to be a positive circumstance.

MAStudent

great point satch