Music Banter - Depression and suicide

Music Banter (https://www.musicbanter.com/)

- Current Events, Philosophy, & Religion (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/)

- - Depression and suicide (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/50936-depression-suicide.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by grtwhtgrvty (Post 1555941)

What I meant is what I said -- that suicide is when mental illness kills someone, depression as an example. You're reading into subtext that isn't there. Reading into non existent subtext literally has nothing to do with my ability to express a point. I think you need to go back to the 7th grade and have a teacher address, very slowly, critical thinking and reading comprehension. I know our school system is ****, but come on.

Well fair enough that's your point then and I still disagree with it and how it conflicts with choice being present. Too bad it's too moronic to address. Sorry about that.

Quote:

Nice generalization. Absolutely no logic made in this point whatsoever. Sweeping generalization. It's not my fault that you missed the point.

Not my fault that you can't grasp the logic of my statement.

Quote:

Hypocrisy under the guise of satire.

Nah I just straight up called you a dick because you were being one. Stop that. You might find that people might even concede points if you didn't come off so arrogantly.

You've still yet to actually refute anything I've said with logic. Still. You've yet to build an actual factual argument against my point, instead derailing everything. You know my point now. Maybe you didn't before, but now it has been spelled out, and you still haven't refuted it in any conceivable way.

We know you're smart man, it made the front page

http://oi62.tinypic.com/ifspjo.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by grtwhtgrvty (Post 1555879)

Did you even read what I ****ing wrote to be honest

It should be obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grtwhtgrvty (Post 1555944)

I just called your original argument stupid in hopes that you would see it in the same light that I do (should have said suicide instead of depression in my initial response, but I was in class and got a little distracted while I was posting it. Whoops). You helped derail this shit with your fifth grader insults.

Anyway, suicide is a choice, mental illness or not. Mental illness can be a key player in that choice, but the mental illness doesn't tie the noose, it doesn't load the shotgun. I can see why you (or others whose ideas you're reiterating) would think the way that you do through an analytical look at the word symptom, but I don't think that it's as cut and dry as that. Sure, suicide can be a symptom of mental illness, but making the decision to kill yourself is every bit as much a decision as not killing yourself.

Say I want to smack a motherfucker because I have severe anger issues. Is my smacking the motherfucker no longer a choice? If no, has everyone who has slapped a motherfucker not done it on their own accord?

It seems like you're the one misunderstanding suicide as only being the product of mental illness when there are several other reasons that people kill themselves. It'd be cool to converse with you on this, see a little more where you're coming from, but let's cut the pettiness because it sounds like neither of us are a fan of derailing a thread.

It's in your hands.

Just kidding. I'll respond later. I'm busy now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grtwhtgrvty (Post 1555858)

Nope. Wrong. Suicide can't be a choice because it's a symptom of mental illness.

Suicide is like jumping out of a burning building, the burning building being your psyche, the fire being depression, for example. You would never reference someone jumping out of a burning building as a clear, definitive choice, rather something more instinctual, a knee jerk reaction.

When someone commits suicide, it means that their depression (for example) killed them. Depression isn't a personality trait. When someone commits suicide, they are not experiencing rational thought. The pain of existence is so overwhelming that in a knee jerk reaction, they end it.

It's not a conscious choice. It's a knee jerk reaction. No one chooses suicide. To have that point of view demonstrates a great deal of ignorance on suicide. If you pulled up any official source they would say exactly what I'm saying. Anyone who thinks that suicide is a choice, and a cowardly one at that, really needs to educate themselves on what suicide is and how mental illness actually works, because that is an opinion of incredible ignorance.

Even if suicide was a choice, I would never call it cowardly. I think choosing (hypothetically assuming that suicide is a choice) to kill yourself actually takes a great deal of courage.

You should pick this book up and read it Darkness Visible: A Memoir of Madness by William Styron

It's very important that you understand where these kinds of thoughts and actions actually come from. You will never ever find a psychologist that references suicide as a choice.

As someone who has dealt with depression and suicide my whole life, I agree for the most part. A quick side note, I don't understand why people even care about whether it's courageous or not, who gives a flying ****. The important point here is that depression is a disease and the choices of a depressed person are often an effect from the cause of that disease. That's not ALWAYS the case, but sometimes it is. You're making it seem like it's ALWAYS the case. I'm not sure if that's your actual belief. I'm speaking from my personal experience when I say that it wasn't a choice for me at the time. I never debated it. It just happened. Depression can take over who you are, and when the pain outweighs everything else it consumes rational thought. It takes away the choice. It CAN take away the choice, but not all the time. People who are suffering from depression can still kill themselves as a choice.

Suicide is not an act carried out exclusively by mentally ill people, though. There are so many scenarios and causes to consider that the logic behind declaring suicide as an act objectively devoid of choice is beyond me.

Sometimes it's a choice. Sometimes it's not. Don't see why everybody has to argue and have a pissing match. You in particular should consider a more tame approach. You obviously don't give a **** about that though, so it's whatever. As you were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth (Post 1555921)

that still seems like a choice to me.

i dunno why having a mental illness renders it not a choice. that's like saying drunk driving isn't a choice cause at the time of the decision to drive their cognitive skills were impaired.

also i don't get why the argument about whether or not it's cowardly is centered around whether or not it's a choice. it could be a choice and still not be cowardly. for example those gangster pics i posted before.

in conclusion: this whole argument seems emotionally driven by the conflicting urges to dissuade suicide and to comfort suicidals

I'd say a big chunk of this argument is due to the ignorance of people who don't understand the illness. I'm not saying that you guys here in the thread don't understand it, just that it's probably why he initially brought up. I'm still not sure whether he believes ALL suicide is not a choice, or if he was only talking about the specific type of people who are driven to it due to severe mental illness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overcast (Post 1555952)

I hope you don't mind me probing since these are pretty personal, but are you implying that you've had a suicide attempt? If so, how long were you thinking about it and did you fight it at all? If you tried to fight at all, what made you do that when there seems like there's no choice?

Finally this thread gets a little interesting.