Muslim Women

Paedantic Basterd · 04-25-2011, 02:02 PM

We've just about reached the extent of my knowledge on the subject, and as such, while I disagree with you, I will not be putting my foot in my mouth and attempting to argue it further.

Mr November · 04-25-2011, 02:07 PM

I don't have that much knowledge about it either. But of course there are going to be many different kinds of knowledge about it - and in the end I think it will always be a battle of opinions rather than facts, and ultimately dictated by the question of what kind of world you want to believe in and live in. That's the nature of any discussion that involves religion.

Dotoar · 04-25-2011, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

I'm against burkas and for questioning all culture and religion. I think banning burkas makes sense, and I think it's unfortunate that people think the French government would do this out of a lack of respect for human rights.

The reason why the french government did it is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

I seriously find it hilarious that people are so politically correct about religion and culture, that they are willing to embrace these kind of "practices" even in modern western society. People are allowed to take swords to school, or cover their entire bodies? Where I'm from you aren't allowed to wear a hood in a public school - someone call the UN and start a protest...

It's not about favourizing religion or cultural practice, it's about the right to wear whatever you want...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

Culture is not some perfect unquestionable ultimately valuable thing. Sure - it's important, but always ask why. This burka thing is so important that these woman couldn't possibly go out without it? That's mentally twisted and wrong. <- period.

...as well as the right to question whatever you want. You're putting up a false dichotomy here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

People will spend their whole lives abiding by arbitrary cultural practices and beliefs for right or for wrong. If we want the whole world to move forward we need to stop allowing people who live in the past to dictate our future.

My bold of what is the key issue here. You propose that we should hinder people, by law and thus by violence, to practice their own belief through clothing. You will need a very good argument to go with that, and no, the cultural oppression that may come within a certain religious system won't do here because the ban is on burkas, not on arbirtrary dogmas proposing oppression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

I wouldn't ask a HINDU vegetarian to eat a hamburger (Indians can be many different religions, and not all of them are against the consumption of meat/ nor do they all worship cows). This is because I don't believe that vegetarianism / not eating beef is a burden to society. If they believed that I shouldn't be allowed to eat a hamburger, or that anyone else shouldn't be allowed to eat a hamburger - I wouldn't give a f*ck about their stupid beliefs. Yet if they had a reason other than religion to say that I shouldn't eat meat, I would consider it very seriously.

Burkas are an issue because they represent everything western society has spent the last 100 years fighting against. If it was a fashion statement I wouldn't be so harsh on it - but it's not. I don't respect religious doctrine. I don't care about it, I don't want to hear it used as a defence for any behaviour, and I don't accept it as unquestionable or untouchable.

You don't have to respect religious doctrine. As a matter of fact, I don't either. What you have to respect though, is that people will choose to practice their religious belief, which is a completely different thing. And yes, you may assume that they don't really choose it but are forced into it, but you can't apply that to a whole population, and you will definitely not put an end to oppression by banning a simple piece of cloth worn in a certain way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

If their religion asks them to do things that compramise societies ability to ensure safety for people, and to ensure a healthy society, then they can't practice their religion.

Non sequitur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

To me the purpose is clarified by the level of adherence. You can play with the intent and try to make it out to be some sort of twisted empowerment or something - but face the facts - it's just not socially healthy. It only serves to segregate sexes, and to violate a persons right to their own identity.

Which is exactly what your stance results in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

I'm not deciding what is healthy and what is not. Although burkas can be shown to cause many health risks such as rickets and vitamin D deficiency. And I guess the question is, who is making this decision? Because there are countries where it is illegal not to wear a burka. And the problem is, these women aren't making a choice. They will not and therefore cannot go out in public without a burka? And this is for a religious reason - so it's not at all on the same level as as someone who has been unfortunate enough to believe that they need to be a sexual object and who may reflect this in the way they dress. And you can actually debate whether skimpy clothing is degrading - I find it hard to debate whether burkas are.

But now we're in France and not in an islamic country. Two wrongs don't make one right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

Western society does push a lot of negative ideas against women. And this does produce its own kind of sexual segregation. But it's different because burkas come from a world where women's enfranchisement, identity, and humanity are being challenged. Provocative clothing come from a world that I really don't understand to be honest - but I don't think it's intended to remove women's human rights...

And here we come full circle: It's completely irrelevant why they banned burkas. They did, and thus they have removed a part of women's (as human beings) rights, and you haven't come up with one single argument that comes close to justify it without resorting to arbirtrary violation of individual freedom and personal taste.

Mr November · 04-25-2011, 03:36 PM

Actually... after reading the response above - I've realized that I can't really justify my position.

The only legislative issue related to safety has to do with whether you can identify someone - and I think if you want to be able to wear a bear suit in public (concealing your identity - and this is just an example), that that should be legal.

I guess I'm against burkas, but not for their being outlawed. This was not my position for the past several hours, but I've just realized I was wrong...

The issue of burkas is still an issue for me - and I still disagree with the approach a lot of people take to this question - which is of religious rights- but I think it has to be addressed in a different manor. Outlawing burkas doesn't address the fundamental issues that I have a problem with. It's an issue of general personal freedom being represented by law then, not one of the freedom to practice religion. Even though I think people shouldn't wear burka's, and that we shouldn't support their use, I do think it would be wrong to outlaw them.

...

btw, sorry to everyone who I now realize tried to explain this to me... I can be pretty close minded when I want to be.

~~Dirty~~ · 04-25-2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla

So in France they have now officially banned the Burka. If a woman is to wear one she will be charged $500. Is this against their rights? Do these women have rights with or without burkas in Eastern countries? Do they know any better than what they've always lived in and been brought up to believe?

Do you think this is fair? Some may argue yes due to the ongoing threat of terrorism and the ability for suicide bombers to have anonymity by wearing these burkas. Others might say no as it is stereotyping those wearing burkas and is against their rights as a human being.

My next question is, do you think it is fair how Muslim women are treated by Muslim men? How much do you actually know of their culture? A lot of women appear to be very keen to wear burkas by respectfully covering up according to their faith, but is this really what religion dictates or is it what men want? From what I understand, men are considered too tempted by women who show flesh and cannot control their urges. Therefore the women must cover up either completely or only leave their face uncovered in order to not encourage men. This is partly due to the rule that a man may not be alone in a room with a woman unless he is wed to her.

I ask western men here, how would you feel about being in that situation where you cannot see the women you are to be with until after you've wed? In the west it is all based on dating and judgement on looks and personality but over there the couples have very little chance to get to know each other. In a nut shell, you will be marrying a stranger who you haven't seen apart from the face/eyes at most.

Now I may be slightly off in my understandings but have this knowledge from dating an arab man myself, which was not the easiest thing to do. I do realise that there will be another side to all this and it is hard to understand a situation without living through it yourself and it becoming personal.

I haven't looked this up, but if it's for some sort of safety reason I can agree with that. I don't really know why else they would be banned to be honest.

I think middle eastern muslims are morons for the most part. Women are second rate citizens from what it seems like. They're a notch above the family dog. I watched a documentary on MSNBC not long ago about some Muslims here in the USA. The Dad murdered both his teenage daughters because they were secretly dating. You can find their 911 calls as they were dying online. Unfortunately that piece of shit was able to get back to the Middler East somehow with his son and avoid punishment.

Anyways, maybe I was getting a little off topic there. But there is absolutely not chance in hell I would ever marry someone without seeing them. It sucks for people who choose that religion, but they knew what they were getting themselves into. Just another case where religion showcases how stupidly powerful it can be.

Dotoar · 04-25-2011, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman

The issue of burkas is still an issue for me - and I still disagree with the approach a lot of people take to this question - which is of religious rights- but I think it has to be addressed in a different manor. Outlawing burkas doesn't address the fundamental issues that I have a problem with. It's an issue of general personal freedom being represented by law then, not one of the freedom to practice religion. Even though I think people shouldn't wear burka's, and that we shouldn't support their use, I do think it would be wrong to outlaw them.

I personally don't like burkas either, if only for aesthetical reasons (women from the middle east can be downright stunning! Such a waste of beauty to cover it up). But just to once again clarify my general view on the moral issue: It's not about 'religious rights' - religion cannot have rights - it's about individual rights which imply the right to practice religion and wear clothes. That is, as long as it doesn't cause actual harm upon anyone else, and religious oppression certainly is an ever-present actual problem.

Just to clarify: Am I correct in interpreting your stance that it's the symbolism behind the burka that irks you the wrong way?

Howard the Duck · 04-25-2011, 08:17 PM

it's not in Quran or any of the law books of the Muslim scholars to wear burqas

it's not even Syariah law to necessitate a burqa

they just say cover your aurat (parts that tempt me) - to me that would be cleavage or thighs

djchameleon · 04-26-2011, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

it's not in Quran or any of the law books of the Muslim scholars to wear burqas

it's not even Syariah law to necessitate a burqa

they just say cover your aurat (parts that tempt me) - to me that would be cleavage or thighs

That's not true Il Duce

read this post of mines
http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...ml#post1042084

I quoted TWO Quran scriptures that mention it.

Howard the Duck · 04-26-2011, 12:33 AM

it's a typo

i meant "men" not "me"

djchameleon · 04-26-2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

it's a typo

i meant "men" not "me"

I read men.

didn't even notice there was a typo til you pointed it out

You do know you can edit posts yes?

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04-25-2011, 02:02 PM	#61 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	We've just about reached the extent of my knowledge on the subject, and as such, while I disagree with you, I will not be putting my foot in my mouth and attempting to argue it further.

04-25-2011, 02:07 PM	#62 (permalink)
Mr November Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Posts: 429	I don't have that much knowledge about it either. But of course there are going to be many different kinds of knowledge about it - and in the end I think it will always be a battle of opinions rather than facts, and ultimately dictated by the question of what kind of world you want to believe in and live in. That's the nature of any discussion that involves religion.

04-25-2011, 03:36 PM	#64 (permalink)
Mr November Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Posts: 429	Actually... after reading the response above - I've realized that I can't really justify my position. The only legislative issue related to safety has to do with whether you can identify someone - and I think if you want to be able to wear a bear suit in public (concealing your identity - and this is just an example), that that should be legal. I guess I'm against burkas, but not for their being outlawed. This was not my position for the past several hours, but I've just realized I was wrong... The issue of burkas is still an issue for me - and I still disagree with the approach a lot of people take to this question - which is of religious rights- but I think it has to be addressed in a different manor. Outlawing burkas doesn't address the fundamental issues that I have a problem with. It's an issue of general personal freedom being represented by law then, not one of the freedom to practice religion. Even though I think people shouldn't wear burka's, and that we shouldn't support their use, I do think it would be wrong to outlaw them. ... btw, sorry to everyone who I now realize tried to explain this to me... I can be pretty close minded when I want to be.

04-25-2011, 08:17 PM	#67 (permalink)
Howard the Duck Live by the Sword Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 9,075	it's not in Quran or any of the law books of the Muslim scholars to wear burqas it's not even Syariah law to necessitate a burqa they just say cover your aurat (parts that tempt me) - to me that would be cleavage or thighs

04-26-2011, 12:33 AM	#69 (permalink)
Howard the Duck Live by the Sword Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 9,075	it's a typo i meant "men" not "me"