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Old 05-30-2011, 08:47 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't see why God couldn't install a randomizing script into our programs.
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Can God move an immovable rock? Either he's all knowing or he's not.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:02 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman View Post
Can God move an immovable rock? Either he's all knowing or he's not.
Well, in that case, your question is, frankly, stupid. Any answer debunks God as we know it.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well, in that case, your question is, frankly, stupid. Any answer debunks God as we know it.
Well then they would call that a rhetorical question.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ian E Coleman View Post
Well then they would call that a rhetorical question.
Then why the heck is this a thread?

Don't answer that. It was rhetorical.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Then why the heck is this a thread?

Don't answer that. It was rhetorical.
Fine then I wont answer it. But I could if I wanted to...
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:19 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Fine then I wont answer it. But I could if I wanted to...
According to you, you don't have a choice in the matter.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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There's no way to prove free will, just like there's no way to prove predestination. Any action could be (mis)construed as being predestined, no matter how random. The idea of free will makes people feel empowered. The idea of predestination gives people an overall sense of security, with "everything happening according to God's plan."

I stand in the corner of free will. I would hate to think that "God" predestined millions of Jews to die in the Holocaust, 3,000+ people to die on 9/11, my uncle to die from a brain tumor, or me to go through a hellacious divorce (especially just to "test our faith" as Vanilla says). That would be pretty sh*tty in my opinion.

Why would "God" predestine people to go against his will? If he is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, why would he need to make us suffer in order to test our faith in him? The Bible says that he is a "jealous God." What does he have to be jealous of? Unless he has legitimate competition, why sweat it? It seems that he needs us to worship and obey him just as much as we "need" him. If everyone has free will, what if everyone chose to disobey him and follow Satan? According to him, the whole world would go to Hell, and he would be sitting alone in heaven with his thumb up his ass. What good does that do anyone?

With no proof of an afterlife, wouldn't it behove him to give us some incentive in THIS life to follow him?
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:51 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oojay View Post
There's no way to prove free will, ....
If I compared the difference philosophical difference between you and a rock, I couldn't bring up the idea you have free will and a rock doesn't? - because there's no way to prove it?
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:04 PM   #30 (permalink)
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If I compared the difference philosophical difference between you and a rock, I couldn't bring up the idea you have free will and a rock doesn't? - because there's no way to prove it?
You couldn't prove it as far as I can see... But I would consider that a rock has no will at all, and therefore has no free will.

I suppose you couldn't prove the existence of free will or pre-destiny... but either way I would say that free will is by far the better assumption to make. But if you're talking about history, than pre-destiny does sort of exist because we can know for sure what did happen to some extent, and then we can look farther back into history and say that that person had a destiny to do a certain thing that also happened in history.

For example maybe we can say that Germany was destined to lose WW1.
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